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Immune system damage?

GenericMind said:
So you're basing your opinion of that study on one line? Did you even read or the rest of the article?

Even ignoring this one, there have been other studies that have come to the same conclusions. I'm sure they're not all wacky prohibitionists making shit up.
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I'm not so sure - the last "scientific" study I read that "proved" damage caused by E turned out to not even have used Ecstasy. I think we need to take these "studies" on a one by one basis and assess their merits individually.

It is a fact that if your lab produces studies saying illegal drugs are harmless your funding will rapidly dry up tho.
 
I always assumed E lowers your immune system in a similar way to how it makes you dehydrated. You over exert yourself to the point of physical exhaustion and dehydration and you increase your chances of getting sick, thats common sence. E does cause this to happen to people but if your sencible this can be totally avoided.
 
Ismene said:
It is a fact that if your lab produces studies saying illegal drugs are harmless your funding will rapidly dry up tho.
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Is that because the labs are maliciously producing false results or is it because a lot of illegal drugs are not, in fact, harmless?

There are a lot of institutions that don't rely solely on government funding. These institutions aren't pressured to skew the results to fit the government's anti-drug agenda. I doubt this one in particular, conducted in Ireland, was influenced by the U.S. stance on Ecstasy.

I'll agree that a lot of what we hear about the dangers of drugs is exaggerated. But there's also a lot of it that's not. Exaggerating
the safeties of a drug is just as silly as exaggerating its dangers. The side that will win out in the end is the one that is the most reasonable and realistic.
 
I have added the link to the directory.

Please correct me if I am wrong but with all such studies, they are actually not considered fact until the results have been duplicated by another study.

However i do consider it good discussion value.
 
GenericMind said:
Is that because the labs are maliciously producing false results or is it because a lot of illegal drugs are not, in fact, harmless?

.
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Well we know there's something strange going on because 40 years ago when LSD was legal there were thousands of studies saying it was safe and the greatest thing to hit psychotherapy since the beginning of time. Nowadays you can't find a single study saying it's worth a shit. So either LSD 40 years ago wasn't the same molecule it is today or the studies are biased. My guess is the studies are biased.

There are a lot of institutions that don't rely solely on government funding.

It's more subtle than just being government funded tho - Alexander Shulgin isn't going to get appointed to many research jobs. If he'd spent his life coming up with anti-drug research he could walk into any job in any lab in the country. You give any prospective employer a research project that says LSD is great and you are going to find it incredibly difficult to get employed. Researchers understand this.

I'll agree that a lot of what we hear about the dangers of drugs is exaggerated

There's also the problem that these drugs are illegal so the amount of serious research you can do into them is practically nill. You're limited to anecdotal stories like "My mate down the pub says he gets a cold when he takes E". Anecdotal evidence isn't always reliable.
 
GenericMind said:
It's been duplicated. It's so established that they're already conducting studies on ways to stop MDMA immune system supression with it as a given premise. Example
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Not quite - we arnt even sure if the drug used by the 12 volunteers was Ecstasy. (Unless the lab was manufacturing and supplying them with pure Ecstasy). If anyone wrote a paper when they wern't even sure what drug was being taken it would be laughed out of any lab in the country.
 
Ismene said:
Well we know there's something strange going on because 40 years ago when LSD was legal there were thousands of studies saying it was safe and the greatest thing to hit psychotherapy since the beginning of time. Nowadays you can't find a single study saying it's worth a shit. So either LSD 40 years ago wasn't the same molecule it is today or the studies are biased. My guess is the studies are biased.
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There's a study on the benefits of LSD for treatment of cluster headaches being done now.

You give any prospective employer a research project that says LSD is great and you are going to find it incredibly difficult to get employed. Researchers understand this.
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I don't think anyone is going to have a hard time finding a job if they accurately present the information they found during any study relating to illicit drugs.

This is getting off-topic, so let's just agree to disagree.
 
GenericMind said:
They were administered pure Ecstasy during the tests.
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So the lab manufactured and supplied them with pure Ecstasy? How did they get away with that?
 
That's certainly far from typical. The vast majority of studies done on E don't use reliable E. I remember a case a few years ago where a guy had parkinsons disease and could hardly walk and shook violently all the time. A single dose of E eliminated all the shaking and allowed him to do somersaults and backflips. Even with evidence of such mind-blowing potential as that the guy had to bring his own street E to the lab.

Following that I never heard of any researcher ever doing any studies on it ever again. Amazing. And yet there's no end of funding for researchers doing studies into the alleged "immune system damage" E might cause.
 
^
Honestly, it isn't ("far from typical"). There are a lot of studies (not the majority, but a lot) that use pure MDMA, manufactured under license. Mostly in animals studies, AFAIK, but some in humans.

There are also a lot of studies (the majority, I'd guess) that do focus on self-reported use of street ecstasy, and acknowledge that they might not always be measuring the effects of MDMA.

I do agree with you about the Parkinson's study - I'm actually surprised it hasn't been followed up, I didn't realise. (Though seriously, would you want to take MDMA as a cure for Parkinson's? For occasional relief, maybe - but as a treatment, taking it daily or something? I don't think so :)).

Welcome back, btw.
 
Thank you jest :)

That's what the guy with parkinsons disease said himself. Although it cured all the symptoms of parkinsons disease he didn't want to take it on a daily basis. Then again he said that the the medication he was taking (L-dopa?) had dangerous side effects too.
 
One other thing that needs pointing out is that just because you can allegedly show damage to certain cells in the immune system after taking E doesn't mean you should jump to the conclusion that "I took E and therefore that's why I got an infection". Lack of sleep, stress, poor nutrition, exposure to the sun for longer than 15 minutes, breathing polluted air, lack of exercise all cause immune system damage as well. Saying "I took E and got an infection therefore it was the E causing damage to my immune system" is nonsense. It could have been half a dozen other factors.

This is the same problem as the "brain damage" issue - if you plant the seed in peoples minds that "E causes immune system damage" they will start noticing that they get ill after taking E. Just like if you tell them "E causes brain damage" they will forget something and then start thinking "It was brain damage from the E that made me forget that".
 
Studies involving 12 people? Jeez. If we're accepting that, accept this. I've been taking ecstasy for nigh on 20 years and my experience, and that of everyone I know who has taken it in a 'home' setting as opposed to a sweaty club, is that ecstasy use seems to be related to CLEARING UP THE COMMON COLD.

There, I've said it. Or shouted it. Whatever, that is my experience and the experience of lots of people I have taken ecstasy with since 1988.

So if its lowering the immune system, how is it clearing our noses?
 
I think Ismene and SHM make some good points there. One thing I've seen in the literature is that high temperatures tend to increase the risk of neurotoxicity (and also the positive effects) of MDMA. When you consider that many people take MDMA in crowded, hot clubs, and stay awake all night, and share water, it certainly seems possible that these things, rather than the MDMA itself, could have caused the immune system problems.

That would be consistent with SHM reporting no problems when using MDMA at home (presumably in cool(er) environments).
 
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