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I'm going to be what God set me out to be

swilow said:
No, I understand the arbitrary doctrinal difference but it doesn't make sense. Jesus is the God of the old testament who gave those laws to Moses. There is only one God for all Christians so Jesus is the entity that urged death and slavery to his enemies.

You mention Adam and Eve, figures from the old testament, before God changed his ways and became the Jesus. Why are they somehow valid yet the evil stuff god tells you to do is not? How do you know what you should base your life on from the bible?
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Only the New Testament is what a believer should base their life on as far as I know. I don't consider Jesus a part of the Old Testament laws/commands. That's why God sent Jesus here, to make a new covenant for love and grace. Jesus was born and took on the burden of man to save us. He didn't want to die on the cross. He even begged his Father God and complained about it. Finally, Jesus got in alignment with God's will and died on the cross for all of us. He went through all of the pain and saved us because He knew He had joy to look forward to. Jesus understands our struggles as humans and our battle with the flesh. As soon as Jesus was baptized, the devil tried to tempt Him and trick Him into giving up everything. Jesus was tempted, but without sin. He didn't sin. He knew He was the rightful son of God and wasn't fooled by the enemy.

It's all about the new covenant of love and grace. Focus on that only. God's love is what pulls people in.
 
CoastTwoCoast said:
Only the New Testament is what a believer should base their life on as far as I know. I don't consider Jesus a part of the Old Testament laws/commands. That's why God sent Jesus here, to make a new covenant for love and grace. Jesus was born and took on the burden of man to save us. He didn't want to die on the cross. He even begged his Father God and complained about it. Finally, Jesus got in alignment with God's will and died on the cross for all of us. He went through all of the pain and saved us because He knew He had joy to look forward to. Jesus understands our struggles as humans and our battle with the flesh. As soon as Jesus was baptized, the devil tried to tempt Him and trick Him into giving up everything. Jesus was tempted, but without sin. He didn't sin. He knew He was the rightful son of God and wasn't fooled by the enemy.

It's all about the new covenant of love and grace. Focus on that only. God's love is what pulls people in.
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I agree love solves all.
 
CoastTwoCoast said:
God's love is what pulls people in.
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Unless you happen to be one of the Hittites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. Then God said to enslave or kill them.

I feel like you quoted the old testament earlier in the thread and made reference to Adam and Eve as if they were real. Yet you just dismiss the viciousness that makes up a lot of the old testament and informs a lot of doctrine among Christians. I don't see how you can claim a God of love when I could use the same reference tools as you and claim a God of hate and violence. Who's right?
 
swilow said:
Unless you happen to be one of the Hittites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. Then God said to enslave or kill them.

I feel like you quoted the old testament earlier in the thread and made reference to Adam and Eve as if they were real. Yet you just dismiss the viciousness that makes up a lot of the old testament and informs a lot of doctrine among Christians. I don't see how you can claim a God of love when I could use the same reference tools as you and claim a God of hate and violence. Who's right?
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You obviously just want to focus on the Old Testament of laws/commands. How many ways can I tell you that doesn't apply anymore and it's all about the new covenant of love and grace? You ignore every single thing I've said and pointed out about the goodness of God. Stop letting the enemy blind you.
 
For historical context and literary context: The Israelites are thought to have been at least in part native tribes occupying the interior hill country of Canaan who began coalescing into what would become the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah as early as the late bronze age through the early iron age. The fact that they engaged in warfare with their neighbors , and invoked the protection of their God in warfare, is completely unremarkable. It would be conspicuous if they didn't. The Old Testament acts in part as the Hebrews' national myth, a treaty, and codification of laws, as was appropriate and neccesary for any nation state in the Levant during the period.
 
CoastTwoCoast said:
You obviously just want to focus on the Old Testament of laws/commands. How many ways can I tell you that doesn't apply anymore and it's all about the new covenant of love and grace? You ignore every single thing I've said and pointed out about the goodness of God. Stop letting the enemy blind you.
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To be fair, we're both talking past each other because you seem to ignore the bits where I point to the evilness of the Christian God. I do not see any goodness in believing in this entity and I think the world has suffered because of the irresponsible pairing of stone age war philosophy with commandments from the creator of the universe. People are under such duress to believe this stuff but the beliefs themselves contain incredibly immoral teachings littered among what I guess passed for wisdom once long ago.

Where is the love in telling people they will go to hell if they simply think a sinful thought? How is the idea that God is watching and judging you for everything you do and think, with your eternal existence at stake, an act of love? It seems more like torture to me especially because it was this God who made us, in His image, to do and think the way we do. That is not love, that is literally sadism.

I was raised Christian and so I am very familiar with doctrine and scripture by the way... obviously, I am an atheist so i don't believe the god is evil. I don't believe the God actually is...
 
Perhaps the simplest way to explain the bible is just to take all the magical thinking away and just read a book written by 40 or so different people over the course of thousands of years. Then, if you follow the new testament teachings, you should learn about which parts are obviously not true. The old testament points to a diety much like any early civilization but it's mostly just fairy stories and the God they spoke about was primarily the government of the day using belief in God to make their own laws with.

This kind of mentality still exists today when I look at America, the head shaking about how bad their government is but everyone still blindly complies even when sense becomes nonsense.

In anyone's workplace there are rules being enforced by the entity we refer to as government, food safe, work safe, FDA or csa approvals required etc. Often these rules are so outdated they are insane and often still enforced. The old testament doesnt really point to an actual diety at all it really points to the government of the people being done in the name of "god" as an entity like our governments today. Just like our governments today which apparently are for the people and by the people, Jewish law was neither by God or for God.

If you just look at Jesus teachings and include all the other random Jesus books it's pretty obvious he was not teaching about Jewish beliefs at all but to keep from being killed the people writing his story made it dove tail with the Jewish story which made it seem ridiculous to any thoughtful person.

Some people say he was probably bringing a religious belief out of Egypt or closer to hindu but he wasn't preaching anything Jewish.
 
swilow said:
To be fair, we're both talking past each other because you seem to ignore the bits where I point to the evilness of the Christian God. I do not see any goodness in believing in this entity and I think the world has suffered because of the irresponsible pairing of stone age war philosophy with commandments from the creator of the universe. People are under such duress to believe this stuff but the beliefs themselves contain incredibly immoral teachings littered among what I guess passed for wisdom once long ago.

Where is the love in telling people they will go to hell if they simply think a sinful thought? How is the idea that God is watching and judging you for everything you do and think, with your eternal existence at stake, an act of love? It seems more like torture to me especially because it was this God who made us, in His image, to do and think the way we do. That is not love, that is literally sadism.

I was raised Christian and so I am very familiar with doctrine and scripture by the way... obviously, I am an atheist so i don't believe the god is evil. I don't believe the God actually is...
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You might have been raised Christian, but you were not taught about God the right way growing up. This is why anyone who is actually interested in learning about God the correct way should only listen to love and grace preachers. I mentioned pastor Joseph Prince has an app and Lakewood Church app has sermons from different love and grace preachers.

God is not looking down judging believers for every little thing or making them feel guilty or condemned. Only the enemy makes believers feel guilty, condemned and judged. That is not God! God's love is not performance-based. You don't have to behave perfectly. No matter what, a believer is a new creation in Jesus Christ and the righteousness of God. The enemy will try to make you feel wrong about yourself, not God. Jesus paid for everything on the cross. God sees a believer as perfect, not because of anything they do, but because of what Jesus has already done on the cross. No one can perform their way into heaven. God sees believers as redeemed, forgiven, a masterpiece, valuable, an overcomer, more than a conqueror, anointed, fearfully and wonderfully made. See how you got the wrong idea?

Listen to sermons from love and grace preachers to actually learn the right way. If you keep holding onto your old beliefs, that's on you, but there is no truth in it.
 
CoastTwoCoast said:
You obviously just want to focus on the Old Testament of laws/commands. How many ways can I tell you that doesn't apply anymore and it's all about the new covenant of love and grace? You ignore every single thing I've said and pointed out about the goodness of God. Stop letting the enemy blind you.
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were never blind when we keep god in our hearts
 
CoastTwoCoast said:
God's love is not performance-based
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But what is sin then if not things God has judged to be immoral or sinful? It seems if you break some precepts like eating an apple, God can and will condemn you and every human ever after.

What is judgement day except the day Jesus will return with his crew and uplift those he judges righteous and condemn to hell those he doesn't?

CoastTwoCoast said:
Only the enemy makes believers feel guilty, condemned and judged
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My emphasis. I'm curious as to why God's love is intended for believers only... Why would the creator of the universe require belief in Him to love me? He created me- and my doubts too. Again, it seems cruel to create something to do something and then condemn them if they do it.

It seems odd that the most powerful entity ever needed to kill his son, or make us kill his son, to open the gates of heaven for us. He is the one who closed them and booted us from the garden of Eden, he also presumably made all of creation. I'm pretty sure it's a limitation to power if such convolutions are require for Him to forgive us. In truth, Jesus might not even have existed in the way you think, and the new testament kicked off millennia of persecution of the Jews because of claims made about them. It's not a love filled text no matter how you read it. And it's considered the word of god- that such a flawed book is seen as the moral teachings of the God makes it incredibly powerful and dangerous and certainly not something to live one's life by.

Fwiw, I find this discussion interesting but if you want to opt out, that's fine. ❤
 
@CoastTwoCoast, you seem to have picked out the parts of the bible that fit in with your lifestyle and mindset, then you've just rejected the rest.

Which is fine.

.. Until you start preaching that half-assed approach to salvation as the one true path that others should apparently follow.

That's when you are going to be called out on your hypocrisy, intolerance and complete lack of consistency.

Splashing some holy shit on your face or dunking your head into a lake or whatever ritual you spent five minutes partaking in before returning to your life of premarital fucking and drug use doesn't grant you a ticket to paradise, regardless of the clear conscience and new found sense of assurance that you've convinced yourself that you are now entitled to.

Either follow the book or don't. You're not the only one who believes that your version of god and christianity is the 'right' one.

You are so wrong here.
About everything.
 
The Garden story uses a mythical utopian place and contrasts it with our own dystopian world, where sin and death exist. The purpose is to focus the reader on our own world, reminding us of our humanity.
 
^I think an interesting part of that idea is whether it was actually a utopia or not. Iirc, the Apple gave knowledge of good and evil- I wonder what sort of self awareness we could have had before that? I think it works as an allegory for something like the emergence of our own conscious sense of self from a more primal murky past, which in many senses was a good thing. I can imagine the garden of Eden to be something of a pretty prison more than a paradise.
 
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Kaden_Nite said:
@CoastTwoCoast, you seem to have picked out the parts of the bible that fit in with your lifestyle and mindset, then you've just rejected the rest.

Which is fine.

.. Until you start preaching that half-assed approach to salvation as the one true path that others should apparently follow.

That's when you are going to be called out on your hypocrisy, intolerance and complete lack of consistency.

Splashing some holy shit on your face or dunking your head into a lake or whatever ritual you spent five minutes partaking in before returning to your life of premarital fucking and drug use doesn't grant you a ticket to paradise, regardless of the clear conscience and new found sense of assurance that you've convinced yourself that you are now entitled to.

Either follow the book or don't. You're not the only one who believes that your version of god and christianity is the 'right' one.

You are so wrong here.
About everything.
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No, I'm not wrong about everything. Being saved is not an excuse to do whatever you want. There is still repentance, but believers repent because they know God has already forgiven them, not because they feel like He's angry at them. Are you Christian all of a sudden? Pages back you seemed to be mocking everything. If you're not actually listening to the word of God or even have love in your heart for God enough to want to even try to follow Him, don't attempt to call me out on anything.
 
swilow said:
But what is sin then if not things God has judged to be immoral or sinful? It seems if you break some precepts like eating an apple, God can and will condemn you and every human ever after.

What is judgement day except the day Jesus will return with his crew and uplift those he judges righteous and condemn to hell those he doesn't?



My emphasis. I'm curious as to why God's love is intended for believers only... Why would the creator of the universe require belief in Him to love me? He created me- and my doubts too. Again, it seems cruel to create something to do something and then condemn them if they do it.

Fwiw, I find this discussion interesting but if you want to opt out, that's fine. ❤
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I don't know if you saw my post above, but being saved doesn't mean you get to do whatever you want. We still have to repent for sin, but we repent because God has forgiven us, not because we think He's angry at us.
I would like to opt out actually, but only because I'd rather those of you who are interested actually listen to the Word of God for yourselves. The word of God is important because when you hear it, your faith grows and you'll get a much better understanding of everything. Faith will rise in your heart by hearing it. I'm only telling you what I know, but I don't know everything.

God loves every one, that's why He gave us all a chance for salvation. I wasn't a believer for a decade or so and God protected me from the enemy who could have easily taken me out countless times because I was doing whatever I wanted. I didn't care if I lived or died at one point. BUT when God reached out to me at a certain time in life, I let Him in. God is good enough to protect you even if you're not a follower yet. Those of us here are alive and breathing today because God put that breath in our body. As long as you are alive, there is a chance for salvation. Don't take it for granted though, thinking you have all the time in the world to get saved at the last minute. Anything can happen to any one of us at any time. ❤️

My emphasis was only on believers while responding to you earlier because you said you were raised Christian. So I was letting you know how God felt about you when you were a believer. Please don't get me wrong, He loves us all or else salvation wouldn't be available at all.
 
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