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I'm a borderline. Can I ever have a relationship?

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^ I have heard that people with BPD can benefit greatly from the effects of MDMA, sometimes to the point where they like it so much that they become addicted to the social freedom they get from it. Now obviously that would be a step in the wrong direction, but I think with some proper therapy, MDMA could be helpful.

What makes you so against the idea?
 
Cane2theLeft said:
If you just go out and try to make friends without other interventions, you're simply going to repeat the same patterns you have in the past and those relationships will probably prove unsustainable and if/when this happens, you'll probably just feel worse about yourself and your prospect for living a 'normal' life with healthy relationships.
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QFT Cane. That's my cycle, it just keeps happening and I'm at the point where I really doubt I can live a "normal" life because of it. Regardless of advocating clinical treatment or not, Cane is absolutely right about this, and since I've posted I've seen a good deal of bad advice in here too. It's not easy to learn how to have healthy relationships, and while currently I must be untreated for lack of medical insurance nor being totally poor reasons, this feat does not seem like something someone can easily do on their own. Especially if they've reached the point that they feel too awful about it to be not actively afraid and almost clueless as to how to go about changing it, IME.

YMMV with any mental illness clearly but, this shit sucks.
 
Cane, I guess this probably isn't the best place to have this conversation, however I'll clarify the major points: I wasn't trying to separate different types of mood disorders as they are now defined, but rather separate mood oriented disorders from cognitive-focused (schizophrenia). As I've discussed with you outside of BL, I prefer the older pre-DSM definitions that were rooted more in theory and BPD would be a mood disorder in that line of thinking (mood swings are a main criteria for BPD, so it is definitely mood oriented). Anyway, I'm hoping with my explanations to encourage the OP to understand that their condition is not irrational but rather a defense, and that understanding that they are defensive is the key to moving forward.

I'd like to keep talking about this though, maybe I'll type something up and post in P&S...

Edit- I just reread this part of your post:
I didn't just read a brief description of the condition online and then start speculating.

This is what I'm talking about where people with very little education or formal training on the subject start chiming in and giving advice that can be unabashedly detrimental to an individual.
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C'mon man, I said right in my post that I reject the formal stance and that I feel psychology as a science has been going backward for some time. I don't appreciate the elitist attitude, especially not from someone who I've had previous talks with on this very subject. You should know better than anyone that I'm not talking out of my ass here, considering we've actually discussed this before.
 
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I'm the OP. Thanks for all the responses everyone, really touched me, for a while. I guess I'm just hardwired to stop myself from wanting good things and sabotage the chance of every good thing that comes my way. I shut out people on my own, consciously or subconsciously.
I've tried pure MDMA once, low dose though, and got into an arguement with a close friend instead of bonding with anyone. As for therapy, I'd love that. But the country/society i'm in isn't concerned with mental illnesses. I would have started therapy years ago if I could, I looked everywhere. The few I did find were way too expensive to see regularly. So I just made up my mind that I'd have to learn to live with borderline and depersonlisation and all the related stuff. I have learned to live with it, just that now it's a dead end existence, as good as being dead without any of the passion and motivation and energy I had before, even if it was negatively focused.
 
Don't give up OP, there's tons of self help out there. Have a look at http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/ for a start...

I work a lot with people with personality disorders and I agree, everyone is different, but the patterns of behaviour and thinking do tend to sabotage most close relationships, leaving people isolated and alone. So finding a way of working on yourself, even if it's through online self-help, can still give you some tools to learn to cope better and regulate your own emotions instead of projecting them on the people you care about and expect every relationship to fail. Big hugs xxx
 
^ that's some great advice. I fear the picture I painted previously was unnecessarily grim. There are a lot of resources out there online and in book form that you can utilize to improve your situation. It's not an overnight cure, but I've seen these avenues make substantial differences for people.
 
Pegasus said:
C'mon man, I said right in my post that I reject the formal stance and that I feel psychology as a science has been going backward for some time. I don't appreciate the elitist attitude, especially not from someone who I've had previous talks with on this very subject. You should know better than anyone that I'm not talking out of my ass here, considering we've actually discussed this before.
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You're of course entitled you your own personal opinion on psychology, but as someone who's credentialed and spent years in its study, I can say you're factually incorrect when you make a statement like "...psychology as a science has been going backward for some time." Have you taken even the most cursory look at the development and advancement of psychological science over even the last 10-20 years?

Is the modern practice of psychology perfect? Absolutely not, and you can nit-pick individual areas where the scientific research is thin all you want, but making blanket statements about an entire field of science is nothing more than hyperbole.
 
^ You're entitled to rehash what you've learned; I'm researching and thinking for myself. I don't understand why you assume I'm uninformed because I disagree with certain aspects of a science. As you know, this is part of the scientific process.

Sure, some improvements have been made in the field, but what I'm talking about is the overall mindset of the research. The problem I have is that more understanding of the mind is claimed than realistically can be claimed. What is being pointed out is merely the effect side of a causal relationship in many cases. As I was talking about with Cane last night, there many things that are considered disorders that I do not believe we have sufficient understanding of the mind on which to make such a bold claim. We have to intimately understand the cause and effect relationships of the mind before we can say that any "disorder" is anything but a logical response to a stressor. Medicating these problems has become a front line treatment and this is what I'm most opposed to.

I respect you but am bewildered that you're so closed off to radical thought concerning a science that was almost completely conjecture less than 100 years ago.
 
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^ conjecture? Just because it wasn't formally studied, named and classified until Freud and his contemporaries doesn't mean these observations about behavior, temperament, personality, pathology, etc. haven't been made since well before the Greeks. As a fan of temperament theory, this outlines how it goes back to at least 590 BC.

The field has been consolidated and focus has shifted to more practical concerns (as well as medicalized which, as we've discussed elsewhere, isn't necessarily the best direction) but to act like this all just appeared since Freud is silly.

It's good to question and challenge but to ignore what scientific studies and tests have repeatedly shown seems ludicrous to me. You need to have a basis for your beliefs and I trust scientific findings over 'radical thoughts'.

/derailment.
 
I'm not going to defend every little word I say. If anyone's really trying to see what I'm saying, the concept is there. You guys believe what you want to believe and I'll keep pursuing what I'm pursuing.

Concerning what I've said in this thread to start out, my advice was one of the few with a non-defeatist attitude posted and I'm happy for that. OP, believe that you can overcome this on your own if you want to get better. Believe you're damaged goods if you don't want to give yourself a chance to progress.
 
I'd rather someone look at their situation realistically than have the false notion they can essentially will something away that they can't. You can spin the reality and claim it's 'defeatist' but honestly, it's not defeatist to tell someone they need support and they have to address these changes. You can't tell someone who is severely addicted to just hope they can get self-control and their problems will disappear; you can't tell a schizophrenic to overcome their paranoid hallucinations. Certain issues (whatever you want to call them if you prefer not to medicalize things) require outside intervention for successful outcomes and this is one.

The OP can absolutely make strides on his own utilizing online resources, books on the subject and committing himself to making necessary changes. He has that power but no matter what the scenario, people often need help in some form and can't just hope or will themselves to overcome something. As humans, we don't exist in a vacuum and most problems can't be solved in one either.
 
^You're right, a schizophrenic can't do that... In my controversial original post I distinguished mood abnormalities from cognitive disorders for this reason. Mood disorders are development-related and the prognosis is generally good for working past them. Cognitive disorders including schizophrenia generally have a bleak outlook as they get progressively worse.
 
^ can you find me ANY reputable source that claim you can 'work past' Borderline Personality Disorder? I've seen lots of promising information on successfully managing it but never 'working past' it... which is why I said it's important to be realistic and doing so isn't being defeatist but simply not offering truly false hole.

I'd agree with you with many of the Axis 1 mood disorders but Personality Disorders are quite different which is why I tried to make that distinction early on.
 
^ Look for people talking about how they beat BPD-- they accepted that they were defensive and worked past it in every case I've read. Councilor or no, the key is acceptance and integration of feelings into normal life.
 
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^ I tried to preempt such claims with the qualifier 'reputable'. There is no control or check on people claiming they are borderline and having been liberated by their own actions alone. I'd be happy to create a website claiming how I beat my Borderline Personality Disorder by eating fritos and masturbating if you'd like me to demonstrate what I mean ;)
 
Well let's just break down what you're suggesting, then. You're suggesting that psychological help is necessary. I agree that some sort of help would be hugely beneficial for most. Medication and psychologists aren't the only forms of psychological help available though. The way I see it, the advice I'm giving is the basics of what a psychologist would hope to instill in the patient. They may be able to talk more in depth about what exact actions caused the person to become this way or prescribe medicine, but the most crucial element is what I'm describing: understanding that they worked up a defense to some stressors in their past, acknowledging that these defenses are now working in a way that is limiting them in life, and making attempts to integrate these feelings into their future, resolved self.

Dwelling on the diagnostic disorder stage is the absolute worst action that could happen. What I provided was a blueprint to move forward. You may call this false hope, but I think the burden of proof is on you to say that there are no cases of someone progressing past BPD... If this is not the case, then the hope I offered is totally legitimate, regardless of whether or not they pursue help, as the thing that causes improvement is an understanding. Where the patient gets that understanding could be a psychologist or some other place.
 
@ OP I'm borderline and I've had some romantic relationships. But I don't do the idealizing and devaluing anymore, and I learned when I was young how to deal with anger in productive ways. I still screwed most of them up by being too distant and cold, but the point is, it's not impossible. Don't give up hope.

@ People saying deal with it by yourself, just go out and meet people, etc. YOU DON'T GET IT. Seriously. You don't understand. That advice is good for people in general, but not here.
Look for people talking about how they beat BPD
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I dealt with it by repeatedly going to psychiatric hospitals and mental health clinics.

Before that, I tried for years to fix it myself, and ended up in a hospital on a ventilator, because I took 20 something oxycontin and about a half a gram of xanax. You're giving some very bad advice here...
 
Pegasus said:
You may call this false hope, but I think the burden of proof is on you to say that there are no cases of someone progressing past BPD... If this is not the case, then the hope I offered is totally legitimate, regardless of whether or not they pursue help, as the thing that causes improvement is an understanding. Where the patient gets that understanding could be a psychologist or some other place.
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So your logic is if I can't prove a negative, you're right?

Great post, mars - thanks for sharing your experience :)
 
It's not like I wasn't expecting to get backlash from people suffering from BPD. mars, you're right, I don't get it, can't ever get it because the events that caused it are in your past, not mine. Are you really trying to say that it is impossible to get better though?

I really don't have more to say here... OP, don't believe for a second that you can't get past this though. Naysayers are just that. People who claim to intimately understand the body to the point of making some of the claims you see are deceiving themselves. There is lots that we don't know. We know some, not enough to make definitive statements like "you can't beat this condition" though...
 
Impossible? No. It's probably possible, but I've never heard of it happening, and there was no way that I could have. Trying to fix it myself just made it worse.

The events that caused it are kind of irrelevant. What you need to understand, is what it feels like, what people who have it think, how they act, and other things like that. You haven't lived it, or seriously studied it, so you won't be able to understand why fixing it on your own is nearly impossible.
 
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