Illegally searched

[Titus]

this is not always true.

I guess I stand corrected. I am willing to admit when I am wrong. A lawsuit in this cases would be silly anyway but I"m a strong advocate for civilian review boards of police departments and think it's worth it to file a complaint when a cop steps out of line. They are not likely to get in trouble for that particular complaint, but by filing complaints patters emerge... people who don't know each other in different parts of town complaining about the same illegal behavior... it also messes with their chances for promotion (although a lot of the dickhead cops who like violating rights don't want to move up the chain of command, they like fucking with the little guy and looking for opportunities to crack heads).

 

[Titus]

If a cop says step out of the car there is nothing wrong with clicking the door lock (make sure u have your key) and stepping out in a fashion so that the door doesn't swing wide open, kinda slinking out the door, and then shutting it behind you. [Banquo: I would strongly recommend NOT doing this.]

First of all let me say my use of the word 'slinking' out of the car does not accurately represent what I was trying to say. Also, if the cop has informed you that he intends to search your car and you clarify that it is in fact a command and not a request then I do not advocate doing this.

But whenever I step out of my car, I always lock all my doors. It is my car and I like to keep it secure. I still think it's a good idea to step out of the car and lock the door behind you and close it if the officer simply requests that you step out of the car.

What cops do when you don't do this is they say some vague comment like "you don't mind if i look in your car do you" and then whether or not you say yes or no they pretend to interpret it as permission to search. So even if you do not follow my advice and lock your door and close it behind you when you step out of your car (assuming the cop has not already said he is going to search it against your consent) your response is not a yes or no but "Officer I do NOT consent to the search of my vehicle.

As I said 'slink' is not what I meant, simply exit your car and close the door that you locked. That way there is not an open door for the officer to lean into while he asks you some quesion that he will interpret a yes or no answer to as consent to search. It avoids that quandry a lot of pepole find themselves into. The cop is not my friend. He is a stranger to me and I do not trust him. Since I am a law abiding citizen I don't want him wasting any more of my or his time messing with an innocent citizen than necessary. Shutting my car door behind me after locking it is simply the way I always exit my car. If the officer ordered me to keep the car door open or unlocked and clarified that it is in fact and order and not a request then I would do it. Otherwise the door is locked and closed behind me just like when I park it at my moms house or the church or when I go to donate to the policemans ball.

And I would like to know the reasoning behind you strongly disagreeing with my advice. Was it the 'slinking' characterization that I did not mean to covey or do you have a reason to suggest that keeping the door unlocked or especially open is a better idea?

 

[Johnny1]

Titus, here are some of the problems with two of your suggestions:

- Filing a complaint against the cop:

Yes, it could hurt his/her chances for promotion. And in a large department, it will cause a bunch (30 or more) hours to be spent on investigating the complaint, and could result in corrective action, although the vast majority of complaints result in no discipline to the officer.

But it could have a significant and unwanted reaction on the part of that cop and potentially others in the cop's department that would make the procedure detrimental to most of the posters here. First, the citizen should be squeaky clean before filing such a complaint. All the cop or the police department has to do is to pay extra attention to the complainant and catch him/her in illegal activity. Then not only does the complaint now come from a person who has been arrested and charged with a crime--soon to be called a criminal, after conviction--but now the complainant has to deal with these charges.

I know you pointed out that much of your advice is not valid for those who appear to be criminals or druggies, but it's important to consider that this particular advice is also generally not valid for someone who is committing a crime, even if that crime is merely the possession, transport, and/or purchase of illegal drugs.

Next, here is a phrase that's food for thought: "The cops are the largest gang in the city." Would you fuck with a gang member? If standing up for your rights was important enough to you, the answer might be, "Yes." But that's not the position most people are in. Most people are simply trying to get through the day. By filing a complaint, you've made an enemy. Especially in a small town or with a small department, you will make a big wave when you do so. A cop who is a bad apple in his/her conduct on the job is probably a bad apple off the job as well. It's a bad idea for most people. UNLESS, that is, the cop's conduct is so egregious that it results in physical injury, phony criminal charges, or some other legally-actionable damages. In that case, the entire process should be handled by your lawyer.

Obviously, it takes brave people to stand up for their rights and help ensure that bad cops are weeded out. But a user of illegal drugs is not usually the one who should be that brave person.

- Closing the door behind you and locking it:

It's similar to what I just wrote above. You just fucked with the cop. You made his or her job harder. You challenged his or her authority. You put a physical barrier between the cop and the interior of the car. This has legal and personal implications.

Legal: In certain circumstances, the cop has a right to search the space within your immediate control (aka your "wingspan") to make sure you don't have a weapon. Once you're out of the car, the items inside are arguably no longer within your reach, but now, even to an honest cop, you've aroused suspicion about what's inside your car. Could you have a weapon in there? How quickly could you unlock your door and grab it? You will cause even a good cop to be scared, angry, and suspecting you of hiding something.

Personal: You fucked with me, so now it's a must that I fuck with you, asshole. This could be anything from a very thorough search of your entire vehicle, to waiting until a drug dog arrives to sniff you and the vehicle, to a beating. This runs contrary to your previously-posted good advice about being the type of citizen that appears to be docile, harmless, and cooperative, except when it comes to consenting to a search and otherwise politely but firmly standing up for your rights.

Also, make sure, when pulled over, that you do NOT exit the vehicle unless the cop orders you to do so. I know your approach is to follow the cop's orders exactly (the exceptions being verbally not consenting to a search and asking whether you're free to go)--and this is a great way to avoid further trouble. But it's worth pointing this out to avoid confusion.

This doesn't mean that other suggestions of yours aren't accurate and valuable. But it's taking us some energy to sort through them.

 

[Titus]

I appreciate your thoughtful reply and think you make a lot of excellent counter points, in particular about filing complaints.

But I guess we just see the exiting of the vehicle differently. Do you think a cop has a right to search your vehicle or to have access to your vehicle? I don't want any stranger to have access. If you look like a dopehead and talk wise ass with him he's much more likely to fuck you over and lie about it. But if you simply exit your car and shut your door behind you I don't see it as an act of defiance or anything. Presumedly he wants me out of the car to do a terry search (and to sneakass get in my car without telling me beforehand) so I step out and he does his terry.

I have myself been beaten by cops before. And beaten after having drugs planted on me. Beaten unconscious in fact where I could not walk for 3 days. I used to be a bad ass wild man. All this happend because of what I said, I did not resist arrest at all or anything. I talked shit.

I do not talk shit to cops any longer. But I expect them to be out getting purse snatchers not poking into my private property.

If he asks why I locked my car, it's because I always do. If he asks for consent he does not get it. I tell him I am in a hurry and wish to leave as soon as I am legally allowed to do so. I say so in a polite and respectful manner. I do not use a smart ass or degrading tone. I behave in a perfunctory manner and simply am out to protect my rights. He certainly isn't going to do it for me.

I dont' think I will ever catch a beating for that behavior. I will maybe have him ask his fishing questions, to which I reply I am not intersted in answering quesitons, I am interested in leaving as soon as I am legally allowed to do so.

I'm not saying this is for everyone but I think it has merit and should be considered as an option.

I guess we can agree to disagree on that one my friend. And thanks again for the reply.

Edited by Johnny1 - removed quoted passage because it quoted my entire post. Instead, just see my most recent post, above.

 

[Titus]

- Closing the door behind you and locking it:

It's similar to what I just wrote above. You just fucked with the cop. You made his or her job harder. You challenged his or her authority. You put a physical barrier between the cop and the interior of the car. This has legal and personal implications..

I disagree that I 'fucked with the cop'. I think that mindset is ingrainded within too many people who live in the USA. I think pepole have been conditioned to assume cops have more power, or are supposed to have more power and authority than they are actually granted.

I made his job harder? I am supposed to presume that he is going to fuck with me, an innocent citizen and predict that he is going to try to sneakass search my car? Wow.

I asserted my authority over my own property. I did not challenge his. I also did so in a dignified and non threatening manner. And everything has personal and legal implications.

Legal: In certain circumstances, the cop has a right to search the space within your immediate control (aka your "wingspan") to make sure you don't have a weapon. Once you're out of the car, the items inside are arguably no longer within your reach, but now, even to an honest cop, you've aroused suspicion about what's inside your car. Could you have a weapon in there? How quickly could you unlock your door and grab it? You will cause even a good cop to be scared, angry, and suspecting you of hiding something..

It is the cops job to protect me as an innocent citizen. By locking my car I have just removed a potential threat, if I had a weapon on or under the seat now I can't lunge for it so the cop is safer. And it is not my job as a citizen of this country to second guess what is and what is not going to make a police officer suspicious, angry, or paranoid. Maybe I have a couple of chopped off heads of children under the passengers seat. But it's not my concern what paranoid cops are suspicious of. They are suspicious of everything and everyone and dont' trust anyone. That is their problem, not mine. Those suspicions and fears come with the job, it is not my responsibility to manage them for him. If he is unstable he needs help and shoudl get it.

As far as I am concerned he is there to protect and serve me.

Personal: You fucked with me, so now it's a must that I fuck with you, asshole. This could be anything from a very thorough search of your entire vehicle, to waiting until a drug dog arrives to sniff you and the vehicle, to a beating. This runs contrary to your previously-posted good advice about being the type of citizen that appears to be docile, harmless, and cooperative, except when it comes to consenting to a search and otherwise politely but firmly standing up for your rights.

You are absoultely right that there are far too many unstable cops out there unfit to serve on the police force who have these reactions to someone securing their private property. And you are also right that some can and will do something if angry up to and including murdering innocent people.

 

[Titus]

I also wanted to point out, that based on a bumper sticker on my car the cop is likely to peg me as a 'constitiution nut' (in his mind) prior to even approaching my car. He will be under the assumption that I know my rights and like to have them respected, and they are of particular importance to me...to the point that I advertise so on my car bumper.

I'm not going to reveal exactly what is there as I like being anonomyous but something to the effect of "Make the bill of rigthts the most importan thing in your life, know them, live them, love them" would be the kind of message he would see on my car bumpter.

So he's going to expect to be dealing with someone who knows their righs and goes out of their way to advertise to others that they should know their rights prior to approoaching my vehicle.

 

[QuasiStoned]

He certainly violated your rights, unfortunately there isn't much that can be done short of reporting it, and unless you have a lot of cash to pay an attorney that's about it.

 

[tobala]

I just want to point out that theoretically a cop serves the citizens and his job is to protect them from each other. But practically speaking, cops serve money interests and if there are profits to be made by running nonviolent drug users through the court and prison systems, then your rights as a citizen take a back seat to the almighty dollar.

I also wanted to point out, that based on a bumper sticker on my car the cop is likely to peg me as a 'constitiution nut' (in his mind) prior to even approaching my car. He will be under the assumption that I know my rights and like to have them respected, and they are of particular importance to me...to the point that I advertise so on my car bumper.

LE officers who cater to the profit-generating machines view the Constitution as an instrument that makes it harder for them to serve their masters, and I would wager that among the ones with more serious personality disorders, a "Constitution nut" is looked at as someone who deserves to be fucked with on a more serious level than the citizen who has given up on his constitutional rights or (even better) is partially/completely oblivious to them...

 

[Titus]

I just want to point out that theoretically a cop serves the citizens and his job is to protect them from each other. But practically speaking, cops serve money interests and if there are profits to be made by running nonviolent drug users through the court and prison systems, then your rights as a citizen take a back seat to the almighty dollar.

LE officers who cater to the profit-generating machines view the Constitution as an instrument that makes it harder for them to serve their masters, and I would wager that among the ones with more serious personality disorders, a "Constitution nut" is looked at as someone who deserves to be fucked with on a more serious level than the citizen who has given up on his constitutional rights or (even better) is partially/completely oblivious to them...

Maybe a 'constitution nut' who acts like a nut or who acts discrespectful, etc. I am not a 'constitution nut', in fact I am an anarchist. But in any event I am polite and mature and responsible and respectful. I'm also not a long haired 20 yo in a deadhead van. So I think that cops are much LESS likely to fuck with people like me because they don't want to deal with polite, respectufl, responsible, people who are persisitent about protecting their rights. They are going to be thinking about potential civil liability, as well as potential crap loads of paperwork. This might not apply to a 20 yo, but it does to someone my age.

 

[LiLc]

Sounds like a crooked cop lookin to try and bust you for anything.

 

[tobala]

Maybe a 'constitution nut' who acts like a nut or who acts discrespectful, etc. I am not a 'constitution nut', in fact I am an anarchist. But in any event I am polite and mature and responsible and respectful. I'm also not a long haired 20 yo in a deadhead van. So I think that cops are much LESS likely to fuck with people like me because they don't want to deal with polite, respectufl, responsible, people who are persisitent about protecting their rights. They are going to be thinking about potential civil liability, as well as potential crap loads of paperwork. This might not apply to a 20 yo, but it does to someone my age.

Being an anarchist at heart myself, I entirely respect your position on this.

However it is my perception that law enforcement has been transformed from an institution that citizens pay for to protect themselves into an institution employed by pork-barrel government to generate profits.

Gone are the days when police patrolled the streets and highways to keep them safe, having been replaced by highway units that carry K-9 units in the hope that a failure-to-signal beef will turn into at least a petty drug bust. Long hair & a deadhead t-shirt or crew cut & a baby seat, they don't care--they are always sniffing, searching, doing whatever they can to amplify the offense.

The policeman is not your friend, he is most definitely out to get you. And it's not his fault, really. He's employed by a government composed of slovenly people who have squandered public funds on warfare and crony-contracts for years, bankrupting municipalities while voting pay raises for themselves and taking lavish trips flying first-class and staying in five-star hotels at taxpayer expense.

So institutions like law enforcement become ways to partially pull local governments out of the red--it doesn't entirely work but the pressure is nevertheless on an officer to make arrests and generate revenue.

He's not interested in good manners or the Constitution, but in issuing as many summonses and charges against citizens as he possibly can so he can get the "good cop" stamp of approval from his masters.

 

[Titus]

Here's a pretty good video about asserting your rights dring police encounters made by an ACLU dude:

http://www.leechvideo.com/video/view566.html

'how to avoid being arrested'

And tobala I entirely agree with you about what the police actually are. It just seems that we have different opinions on how to interact with them when we are confronted by them.

 

[Nickatina]

I would advise you not to assert your constitutional rights in the US.

Refer to this brochure handed out to police around the country.

 

[mooncaller]

Sure, you got your rights violated.

No big deal, right?

But the cop did you a favor by not busting you for the contraband,

The dude said that the cop found NOTHING.

 

[mooncaller]

Personally I'd make a stink about it if I were you. If the cop "sees you around" and fucks with you over getting him in trouble that one time then I'm pretty sure it would be even easier to prove future cases of harrassment.

 

[Titus]

Are you insane? Don't assert your consitituional rights? That is your advice to members of this forum?

 

[tobala]

^^^^ Actually, Nickatina's not insane. The entire country is.

And according to that brochure, Titus, you are officially a right-wing extremist--and if they catch you braking for an animal you might be branded a "single-issue terrorist" as well.

So you best run that bunny over no matter how cute it is...

 

[garuda]

If you are too afraid to assert your rights you have none, asserting your legal rights could get you beaten, fucked with, or killed. That is the price you pay to protect yourself and others.

By all means if you are afraid of psychotic officers do not assert your rights, but admit that is because of your special circumstances or your own cowardice.

Hell I have seen citizens of third world countries where its impossible to even find a copy of the local constitution outside of a library and police corruption runs even more rampant then the US show more backbone then some posters here.

That is not to say at all that you should be provoking officers or being an asshole to them, politely and calmly asserting your fourth amendment rights cannot be used against you as reason for a search.
If you present yourself as a punk kid or a drug user of course the cop will think he can fuck with you, present yourself as a law student. I don't think I need to spell out all the visual and verbal cues that entails do I?

 

[Nickatina]

No, just to be careful. In the post 9/11 era - read the flyer! In what to look for in a terrorist, it gives you:

-Request authority for a stop
-Make numerous references to constitution
-Claim driving is a right, not a privlige
-Attempt to "police the police"

NOTICE it says "If you encounter any of the following, call the joint terrorism task force."

All I am saying is don't go overboard and give them any reason to label you as a terrorist - because if you are, you could be in for a lot more shit.

Believe me, I believe in the Constitution as that is what our country is based on and I don't discourage people from trying to use it to their advantage. Is a cop going to call homeland security if you refuse a search? Nowadays? Let the flyer speak for itself. You're rolling the dice.

 

[Titus]

-Request authority for a stop
-Make numerous references to constitution
-Claim driving is a right, not a privlige
-Attempt to "police the police"

None of those apply to what I reccommend. Askinig "am I free to leave?, and saying "I don't consent to searches. and then I am interested in leaving as soon as I am legally allowed to do so... and then keeping your mouth shut...is not attempting to police the police, nor is it making numerous references to the consitution, nor the other 2.