qwe
Bluelight Crew
several centuries ago, this line of thought (well, its opposite) made protestants prosper materially and helped to shape the western world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic
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P&S Moderators: JackARoe | Cheshire_Kat
If there is a god
- Thread starter not a doctor steve
- Start date
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic
High Yogi
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2009
- Messages
- 196
"And it is only made of Good, would it rather us follow the laws of man, or his laws?
Like...to be functional in this world, we have to work, go to school, go through all the red tape in order to live the way we want to.
But, if the god made the world for us shouldn't we just be happy and live our life the way we want to?
I guess the only thing that immediately jumps out to me is that humans naturally want to improve their world through technology, and living a happy, simple life would be taking thousand of steps back.
For that matter, there's obviously evil the world so this god must be unable to destroy the source of evil, a devil. This leads me to believe one of two things:
1. God cannot destroy Satan and vice verse. Therefore, they are two entities that are directly overseeing our existence, and we are free to draw power from wither of them.
2. Satan and God are two halves of the same being. Just like humans, we have good times and bad times."
In the bhagavad-gita, Krishna states: "All states of being- goodness, passion or ignorance- are manifested by My energy. I am, in one sense, everything-but i am independent. I am not under the modes of this material nature."
So you see, god is in all things, but not all things are in god. Therefore, you cannot say that satan is another half to god. God is whole heartedly pure of his own supreme positive nature in every single way manifest. However, through his unlimited opulence and mercy, he has created all things and gives us a choice to choose, as well as a place to be. We have 3 choices to choose from on how we may live our lives.
In the Bhagavad-gita, krishna describes these 3 modes of material nature to Arjuna: "Material nature consists of three modes — goodness, passion and ignorance. When the eternal living entity comes in contact with nature, O mighty-armed Arjuna, he becomes conditioned by these modes."
BG 14.14: When one dies in the mode of goodness, he attains to the pure higher planets of the great sages.
BG 14.15: When one dies in the mode of passion, he takes birth among those engaged in fruitive activities; and when one dies in the mode of ignorance, he takes birth in the animal kingdom.
BG 14.16: The result of pious action is pure and is said to be in the mode of goodness. But action done in the mode of passion results in misery, and action performed in the mode of ignorance results in foolishness.
BG 14.17: From the mode of goodness, real knowledge develops; from the mode of passion, greed develops; and from the mode of ignorance develop foolishness, madness and illusion.
BG 14.18: Those situated in the mode of goodness gradually go upward to the higher planets; those in the mode of passion live on the earthly planets; and those in the abominable mode of ignorance go down to the hellish worlds.
BG 14.10: Sometimes the mode of goodness becomes prominent, defeating the modes of passion and ignorance, O son of Bharata. Sometimes the mode of passion defeats goodness and ignorance, and at other times ignorance defeats goodness and passion. In this way there is always competition for supremacy.
I think that answers your question on whether or not god and satan are two different halves to the same one quarter. Both poles do exist, as well as the middle way. Goodness-awake-light and ascending toward god. Passion-middle way. Ignorance-darkness-asleep and descending to the devil. Even though both poles do exist, god remains independent, as that is his nature. Also, god can easily destroy all evils of the world in the blink of an eye, however that would leave us very little room for advancement, because you will soon realize that pain and suffering are our teachers, it is the bitterness that makes sweetness all the sweeter. without tasting something bitter, we cannot appreciate something sweet. One of gods greatest blessings he can give us is suffering and a means to transcend that suffering and find liberation. If there were no suffering, there would be no motivation to do so. But again, god can easily destroy any demon, for he has created all things, surely he can just as easily destroy it. but that is not his nature. Sometimes he may do so, like in the ramayana of Valmiki, when he destroyed the demon Ravana after kidnapping his wife Sita.
now let me try and answer your other questions: "And it is only made of Good, would it rather us follow the laws of man, or his laws?
Like...to be functional in this world, we have to work, go to school, go through all the red tape in order to live the way we want to.
But, if the god made the world for us shouldn't we just be happy and live our life the way we want to?
I guess the only thing that immediately jumps out to me is that humans naturally want to improve their world through technology, and living a happy, simple life would be taking thousand of steps back."
You said, "if the god made the world for us shouldn't we just be happy and live our life the way we want to?" I believe he did just that. I believe this is the reason why he hasnt come to destroy all the evils of the world, because in doing so, we would all be dead. He allows for us to work out or own problems and dilemmas, but at the same time helps and guides us through his transcendental position, seated in the hearts of all beings. He allows us to live in the world however we may like, which is how we got here today with all of our "sophistication." But this "sophistication" is far from truth, and is no wonder why we are all suffering. We are suffering because we are all disillusioned by false priests and dogmas. One may easily live in today's society with true happiness, as mankind has reached levels of advancement never before fathomed. Surely, we may find a middle path between truth and technology. (truth being non attached and renounciation to all things other than god)
You also said: "And it is only made of Good(god), would it rather us follow the laws of man, or his laws?
Like...to be functional in this world, we have to work, go to school, go through all the red tape in order to live the way we want to."
Once again, the choice to choose is always given by god. You ask if god would rather us follow the laws of man or his laws, what do you think? Of course god wants us to follow his laws and not the laws of man, for the laws of god are eternally blissful and forever enduring. This is the bases for Founding America, god given unalienable rights. But this is also why so many want america to fall, because they cant handle choices, they cant handle freedom,they want order amongst chaos, they want rules and regulations. BUt these rules and regulations are all seen as dogmatic through the eyes of truth. Let each circumstance be the judge on whether or not a choice is good or bad. Laws are made by man to control, laws are made by god to establish truth amongst chaos. The difference is that one is selfless, pure, and much wiser. Who am i to tell you what do to? We are both brothers under in the same house. Your order is as good as mine, so then why follow any order? lets all follow our own. But we arent just brothers without a father, a father has also laid out his order and we may choose to follow them, for this father of ours is ever merciful and compassionate. He is the creator of everything we know and dont know, it would be foolish to not follow, but still we have a choice. If we choose to follow our fathers rule, even though we do not HAVE to, our father will be proud and move us into a bigger home that follows that same order. However, if we do not wish to follow that order, we may stay here for as long as we like. And we may have been here birth after birth for thousands of years because we still havnt accepted his truth.
It is also stated in the Bhagadavd-gita: " A yogi is greater than the ascetic, greater than the empiricist, and greater than the fruitive worker. Therefore, O Arjuna, in all circumstances, be a yogi"
To be a yogi, would be to be in union with god, or the divine and to see him in all things, places, and circumstances. If one is established in yoga, one may do all of those things you have spoken of, "we have to work, go to school, go through all the red tape in order to live the way we want to."
It does not matter what you do, what matters is how you do it. We get the dogmatic misconception that in order to be monk, a mystic, a disciple, or whatever one may wish to be or call it, one must give up all doing all things and sit there silently forever like a statue. That is completely false and far from the truth. The truth is of god, and god is everywhere at all times. The highest path one may walk on, is to be in touch with god always and with loving service. If god really is everywhere at all times and you seek obtain unity and service with him, then why cant you go to school, or work, or enjoy food, or see people? You see the dogma in this? We think in order to be a buddha, or a yogi, one must quit all things. This is false. One still does things, but it is he who does them that changed. So, its not a change of action but a change of heart. With this change of heart, one might not want to pursue those same actions, but its a change of heart regardless. If one only changes his actions but not his heart, he is simply dragging with him his ignorance throughout all endeavors of life. This is ridiculous and hilarious. So, once u change your heart, you may still educate yourself, by all means please do so, but the education u once sought which was for the lesser things, may now be for the higher things. you may still work, but that of which you are working for is a higher purpose. You may still do everything you do right now, only once you change for the better, everything of which you do, will too be better, and at the end of this comes a great completion and contentment. This may be the point of full renunciation. So, what im getting at here is that you may do everything, but do it will none attachment(Vairagya)
In the yoga sutra of Patanjali, patanjali says: " The first state of Vairagya, desirelesness (non attachment) is cessation from self indulegence in the thirst for sensous pleasure, with conscious effort.
The last state of Vairagya, desirelesness is the cessation of all desire by knowing the innermost nature of Purusha, the supreme self.
Like...to be functional in this world, we have to work, go to school, go through all the red tape in order to live the way we want to.
But, if the god made the world for us shouldn't we just be happy and live our life the way we want to?
I guess the only thing that immediately jumps out to me is that humans naturally want to improve their world through technology, and living a happy, simple life would be taking thousand of steps back.
For that matter, there's obviously evil the world so this god must be unable to destroy the source of evil, a devil. This leads me to believe one of two things:
1. God cannot destroy Satan and vice verse. Therefore, they are two entities that are directly overseeing our existence, and we are free to draw power from wither of them.
2. Satan and God are two halves of the same being. Just like humans, we have good times and bad times."
In the bhagavad-gita, Krishna states: "All states of being- goodness, passion or ignorance- are manifested by My energy. I am, in one sense, everything-but i am independent. I am not under the modes of this material nature."
So you see, god is in all things, but not all things are in god. Therefore, you cannot say that satan is another half to god. God is whole heartedly pure of his own supreme positive nature in every single way manifest. However, through his unlimited opulence and mercy, he has created all things and gives us a choice to choose, as well as a place to be. We have 3 choices to choose from on how we may live our lives.
In the Bhagavad-gita, krishna describes these 3 modes of material nature to Arjuna: "Material nature consists of three modes — goodness, passion and ignorance. When the eternal living entity comes in contact with nature, O mighty-armed Arjuna, he becomes conditioned by these modes."
BG 14.14: When one dies in the mode of goodness, he attains to the pure higher planets of the great sages.
BG 14.15: When one dies in the mode of passion, he takes birth among those engaged in fruitive activities; and when one dies in the mode of ignorance, he takes birth in the animal kingdom.
BG 14.16: The result of pious action is pure and is said to be in the mode of goodness. But action done in the mode of passion results in misery, and action performed in the mode of ignorance results in foolishness.
BG 14.17: From the mode of goodness, real knowledge develops; from the mode of passion, greed develops; and from the mode of ignorance develop foolishness, madness and illusion.
BG 14.18: Those situated in the mode of goodness gradually go upward to the higher planets; those in the mode of passion live on the earthly planets; and those in the abominable mode of ignorance go down to the hellish worlds.
BG 14.10: Sometimes the mode of goodness becomes prominent, defeating the modes of passion and ignorance, O son of Bharata. Sometimes the mode of passion defeats goodness and ignorance, and at other times ignorance defeats goodness and passion. In this way there is always competition for supremacy.
I think that answers your question on whether or not god and satan are two different halves to the same one quarter. Both poles do exist, as well as the middle way. Goodness-awake-light and ascending toward god. Passion-middle way. Ignorance-darkness-asleep and descending to the devil. Even though both poles do exist, god remains independent, as that is his nature. Also, god can easily destroy all evils of the world in the blink of an eye, however that would leave us very little room for advancement, because you will soon realize that pain and suffering are our teachers, it is the bitterness that makes sweetness all the sweeter. without tasting something bitter, we cannot appreciate something sweet. One of gods greatest blessings he can give us is suffering and a means to transcend that suffering and find liberation. If there were no suffering, there would be no motivation to do so. But again, god can easily destroy any demon, for he has created all things, surely he can just as easily destroy it. but that is not his nature. Sometimes he may do so, like in the ramayana of Valmiki, when he destroyed the demon Ravana after kidnapping his wife Sita.
now let me try and answer your other questions: "And it is only made of Good, would it rather us follow the laws of man, or his laws?
Like...to be functional in this world, we have to work, go to school, go through all the red tape in order to live the way we want to.
But, if the god made the world for us shouldn't we just be happy and live our life the way we want to?
I guess the only thing that immediately jumps out to me is that humans naturally want to improve their world through technology, and living a happy, simple life would be taking thousand of steps back."
You said, "if the god made the world for us shouldn't we just be happy and live our life the way we want to?" I believe he did just that. I believe this is the reason why he hasnt come to destroy all the evils of the world, because in doing so, we would all be dead. He allows for us to work out or own problems and dilemmas, but at the same time helps and guides us through his transcendental position, seated in the hearts of all beings. He allows us to live in the world however we may like, which is how we got here today with all of our "sophistication." But this "sophistication" is far from truth, and is no wonder why we are all suffering. We are suffering because we are all disillusioned by false priests and dogmas. One may easily live in today's society with true happiness, as mankind has reached levels of advancement never before fathomed. Surely, we may find a middle path between truth and technology. (truth being non attached and renounciation to all things other than god)
You also said: "And it is only made of Good(god), would it rather us follow the laws of man, or his laws?
Like...to be functional in this world, we have to work, go to school, go through all the red tape in order to live the way we want to."
Once again, the choice to choose is always given by god. You ask if god would rather us follow the laws of man or his laws, what do you think? Of course god wants us to follow his laws and not the laws of man, for the laws of god are eternally blissful and forever enduring. This is the bases for Founding America, god given unalienable rights. But this is also why so many want america to fall, because they cant handle choices, they cant handle freedom,they want order amongst chaos, they want rules and regulations. BUt these rules and regulations are all seen as dogmatic through the eyes of truth. Let each circumstance be the judge on whether or not a choice is good or bad. Laws are made by man to control, laws are made by god to establish truth amongst chaos. The difference is that one is selfless, pure, and much wiser. Who am i to tell you what do to? We are both brothers under in the same house. Your order is as good as mine, so then why follow any order? lets all follow our own. But we arent just brothers without a father, a father has also laid out his order and we may choose to follow them, for this father of ours is ever merciful and compassionate. He is the creator of everything we know and dont know, it would be foolish to not follow, but still we have a choice. If we choose to follow our fathers rule, even though we do not HAVE to, our father will be proud and move us into a bigger home that follows that same order. However, if we do not wish to follow that order, we may stay here for as long as we like. And we may have been here birth after birth for thousands of years because we still havnt accepted his truth.
It is also stated in the Bhagadavd-gita: " A yogi is greater than the ascetic, greater than the empiricist, and greater than the fruitive worker. Therefore, O Arjuna, in all circumstances, be a yogi"
To be a yogi, would be to be in union with god, or the divine and to see him in all things, places, and circumstances. If one is established in yoga, one may do all of those things you have spoken of, "we have to work, go to school, go through all the red tape in order to live the way we want to."
It does not matter what you do, what matters is how you do it. We get the dogmatic misconception that in order to be monk, a mystic, a disciple, or whatever one may wish to be or call it, one must give up all doing all things and sit there silently forever like a statue. That is completely false and far from the truth. The truth is of god, and god is everywhere at all times. The highest path one may walk on, is to be in touch with god always and with loving service. If god really is everywhere at all times and you seek obtain unity and service with him, then why cant you go to school, or work, or enjoy food, or see people? You see the dogma in this? We think in order to be a buddha, or a yogi, one must quit all things. This is false. One still does things, but it is he who does them that changed. So, its not a change of action but a change of heart. With this change of heart, one might not want to pursue those same actions, but its a change of heart regardless. If one only changes his actions but not his heart, he is simply dragging with him his ignorance throughout all endeavors of life. This is ridiculous and hilarious. So, once u change your heart, you may still educate yourself, by all means please do so, but the education u once sought which was for the lesser things, may now be for the higher things. you may still work, but that of which you are working for is a higher purpose. You may still do everything you do right now, only once you change for the better, everything of which you do, will too be better, and at the end of this comes a great completion and contentment. This may be the point of full renunciation. So, what im getting at here is that you may do everything, but do it will none attachment(Vairagya)
In the yoga sutra of Patanjali, patanjali says: " The first state of Vairagya, desirelesness (non attachment) is cessation from self indulegence in the thirst for sensous pleasure, with conscious effort.
The last state of Vairagya, desirelesness is the cessation of all desire by knowing the innermost nature of Purusha, the supreme self.
Quantum Perception
Bluelighter
God (the mysteriousness of existence) is inexhaustible by logical means.
Therefore, when thinking about how god would have us live is to reduce him/she/it to some finite action, which comes to our perception more as a bias of our self-schema then it is as a fact of "the world".
Thus, before discussing theological ethics, one needs to go over meta-ethics and as the question what makes something/event "good" or "bad".
Only then can we start to discuss what goodness is and who put it here and for what purpose.
Therefore, when thinking about how god would have us live is to reduce him/she/it to some finite action, which comes to our perception more as a bias of our self-schema then it is as a fact of "the world".
Thus, before discussing theological ethics, one needs to go over meta-ethics and as the question what makes something/event "good" or "bad".
Only then can we start to discuss what goodness is and who put it here and for what purpose.
nolys
Bluelight Crew
Why should people live their lives according to something that probably doesn't exist? I'm 100% athiest and I'm anti-god. “God” creates more problems than anything in this world. When has any prayer anyone has ever made been granted, when has something unexplainable by science ever happened?
Don't live your life according to a book that's 2000 years old is my answer
Don't live your life according to a book that's 2000 years old is my answer
fernsal1
Bluelighter
^^^i wish ppl lived their lives like this. but everyone is entitled to their own beliefs i suppose.
High Yogi
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2009
- Messages
- 196
I agree with you 100% when you basically said that god is an unlimited manifestation of the universe, and to establish a set of rules or dogmas would be very self limiting, for the very essence of good and bad is forever changing throughout circumstance. Please forgive me if i am wrong in your understanding.
However, i submit that this has already been explained in my last post when i used references from the Bhagavad-gita. Try to understand that Krishna is not saying what is good and what is bad, because obviously what we consider good today may change by our view and we will later consider it bad. Rather, Krishna is saying that there are 3 modes of existence, meaning that there are 3 states of mind which are linked to our material nature. The conception of these modes is not dogmatic and is merely an observation. There are either 3 ways in which you can inhabit the world, which is either in goodness, passion, or ignorance. Nothing is stated as being good, or bad, or passionate, but, that there are so. Each individual is driven by these 3 modes and under these 3 modes, he sets the circumstance for being good or bad. Do you get it?
For example, If I am completely sincere in my love making, is love making considered bad? No, of course not. It would be done from my sincerity, meaning I was either in the mode of goodness or passion(sincere love making may even be both) However, If i am lustful and full of sexual greed and desire, this act of sex would not nerely be the same as the sincere lovemaking was. This would be the mode of ignorance and possibly passion. It would be these two modes because I am ignorant of love, which is considered by some the highest truth.
Do you see what happened? the physical action was still the same; male and female intercourse, however, the difference lies in the attitude, or mode of existence. There are 3 essential categories or modes of existence-goodness, passion, or ignorance. Nothing is stated about what is good and what is bad. Krishna is not saying that "intercourse is bad", he isnt even saying its good! what he is saying is that whatever you do, is done in 1 of 3 of the modes of material nature, hes never specific to the action, but who it is who acts. He then explains the natural consequences set out by karma.
Quantum Perception
Bluelighter
^I like that "3 faces of mind" rather then good or bad. It makes a lot of sense and it's subjective rather then some objective monad-like moral.
Thanks for that perceptive!
Thanks for that perceptive!
High Yogi
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2009
- Messages
- 196
I understand your confusion. I too felt the same way, until i could no longer conclude anything other than "god exists."
You ask "why should people live their lives according to something that doesnt exist?" Well, the truth is, one shouldnt if he doesnt believe it to be true. The problem lies then, not in the book or texts, but he who reads the book and texts. You see, the Buddha, Krishna, Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, any great spiritual teacher, are all saying the same thing. What they are essentially talking about is an experience. The experience they speak of is the presence of god, or unity with god, or nirvana, whatever one may wish to call it. And if one has never felt this same experience, than one may genuinely claim their teachings as false or lies. But why would so many people go through so much trouble if god doesnt exist? why would i waste my time typing this now if i didnt want you to understand the truth of his existence? it is because i am certain he is! and so is everybody else who is seen preaching his glories.
I see where you are coming from, you like to think there is no god because then you can go on living without guilt. You may continue doing all the things you know you shouldnt be doing, because you admit there is not god and if there is no god then there is nobody to care about what it is that you do and you get off scotch free for everything youve done. However, believing this to be so doesnt make it true. One may not believe he gets burned if he puts his hands in the fire, but once he does, surely he will get burned. So why risk it? why take the chance and put your hand in the fire, when you can just realize truth through authority? If your parent tells you you will get burned by putting your hand in the fire, you need not investigate for yourself, you can just trust what they are saying and save yourself a lot of misery. You may then start seeing other people burning their hands in the fire, which you may use for evidence without having been burned at all. So then, why risk it? why say there is no god? Because its much easier to do so! It takes balls and a ton of courage to accept ones divinity, to claim responsibility for oneself. But the authority one may seek to take refuge in is none other than the great teachings. All teachings are saying the same thing, for all teachers are the same essential Guru( there is only Guru, for there is only one teaching, though this guru has a million faces, there is only one guru.) And to be blunt, I am not your teacher, nor is anybody else. You are your own teacher. I may sit here and type a million words, but the only understanding you will ever develop from what i say is through your own self. I may say the same thing in a room of a thousand people and every person would have learned something different. Look to your inner guru, then all things may become gurus, or teachers. A circumstance may be a guru, a situation, anything that is spiritually enlightening is considered to be one. But it is from you, he who notices the teaching.
The question i have to ask, is this: If your in a store by yourself and the owner is gone, would you steal anything?
An Atheist would because he has no reason not to. This is a sad way to live. Imagine if society at large was atheist.
A person who is self realized on the other hand, would not. He would have no interest in it. It would not even come to question. Why? because he realizes the eternal self and knows this to be his witness.
whats the difference? One knows and believes, while the other is stuck in ignorance.
However, I do like some of the ideas of Atheism. I get this from my good man Alan Watts. Alan Watts says that one may be Atheist in the name of god. How is this possible? Simply through word jugglery.
One may turn Atheist, a strong word, into A-Theist, a more subtle word. A-theist means you are anti theist. You are not set on dogmas and theologies, you are set on experience because you know experience is where the eternal self and god are and by following the theologies and dogmas of other people, one is lead astray from his own true path of divinity. So you see, one may be A-theist in the name of god. This is very similar to buddhism.
punktuality
Bluelighter
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
JJ-180
Bluelighter
"I think that Judas is the unsung hero of Christianity; God knew, before Judas was born, that he would betray Jesus, and Jesus prophesied it, and that treachery (which he had no hope of not committing) was necessary for Christ's death and mankind's redemption, and yet he gets sent to the deepest circle of Hell for fulfilling his destiny! Jesus might have died on the cross for out sins, but Judas was damned to eternal anguish" (Vektor)
Yes, indeed- Borges shares this opinion, going so far as to postulate that God actually incarnated as Judas, not Christ and if Judas is in hell then it must be heaven,for where God is, there is paradise. A God of infinite and perfect mercy and compassion could only ever send one being to hell- Himself.
Yes, indeed- Borges shares this opinion, going so far as to postulate that God actually incarnated as Judas, not Christ and if Judas is in hell then it must be heaven,for where God is, there is paradise. A God of infinite and perfect mercy and compassion could only ever send one being to hell- Himself.