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If the universe is God, and God is love...

Flickering

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... then why is the universe like this? If you've ever had a mystical experience that led you to believe it, how do you reconcile it with an existence so full of torment and injustice? The world around us repeatedly proves to be utterly indifferent; there is no intent there, it just is. Or am I missing something?
 
The idea that the universe is God is a pantheistic idea. The idea that God is love is a theistic idea. These are two separate opposing worldviews. In the former, evil is only an illusion; in the later, evil is real but has its beginnings in the free will of men and angels.
 
Well, if you want to take the vedic approach... God is infinite and loving, and we are part of God that wishes to experience itself as separate. We "decided" to explore the world of ego, and that's why we suffer. There's really no rhyme and reason to it other than the logic that infiniteness contains everything, which means some part of it must experience finiteness. It's an illusion of course because we're always connected, but the illusion of separation keeps us in a state of suffering because ego keeps us attached.

There's also the aspect where suffering is a powerful teacher. Just because someone is suffering it doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing, especially if it involves growth. However, human existence certainly has its wretched aspects and not all suffering can be explained away too easily.
 
The problem I have with that one is that creatures without egos can clearly suffer as well. Unless you want to posit that every dog and insect has some vague sense of self - which is possible. But I do like that answer.

I've found this question particularly compelling after (finally) watching American Beauty. Specifically the very end.
 
As has been made patently clear through my years of either spectating or participating in theological forum discussions, indemnity and scorn are part and parcel.

Therefore, not wanting to be the target of a verbally-lambasted and logically-exhausted fervent ideologue or tendentious doctranaire's wrath, I feel it is necessary to provide this thread's participants and lurkers—be they seething or sardonic religious skeptics, or an equally-insufferable diehard and obstinate (maybe daft?) theist—with a caveat.

I have been a veritable atheist (or just an incredulous agnostic, as are all atheists) since about 12-years-old. I would obsessively ruminate on my former religion, and I would always find some niggling inconsistencies, blatant scientific incongruity, or suspiciously athropocentric perspectives and cognitive earmarks. Some of these could be comfortably and swiftly reconciled with verbal virtuosity and an admittedly beguiling application of logical argument.

About 4-5 years after, whilst, as per usual, finding myself tediously culling through YouTube's infinite stockpile of pabulum and inanity —like a miner arduoudly shoveling through dirt and rocks all for that improbable discovery of striking gemstones and precious metals—I managed to exhume from the deeply-layered mounds of media ordure videos of Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, the late Christopher Hitchens (a great and admirable man with an almost-preternatual vocabulary and lexical dexterity).

With a careful, buddha-esque concentration, and hours of my time to expend, I watch perhaps 2-3 dozens of these soi-disant "New Atheists" videos. Having grown fond of these men, it hurt deeply to see them all utilize such egregiously unsound argumentation with such an asinine and utterly sophomoric monomaniacal focus on Christianity. There arguments may be abstracted thusly,

A is the set of all religion.
B is an element of set A.
B is proved false.
Therefore, all of set A is proved false.

Abrahamic religions are unmitigated malarkey. The veracity of, say, Jainism, is not contingent on the veracity of Islam, Judaism, Christianity, or the Bahá'í faith. Noah's mendacious and uncorroborated animal raft, the impossibility of Jesus' Benny Hinn-esque medical magic, etc, says what of Hinduism?

I presume that debating a sagacious and knowledgeable Hindu scholar is unappealing to Western atheists as the religion (or technically, the myriad of mildly inter-related and incredibly disparate sub-religions that Westerners negligently and lazily subsume under a single word «Hinduism») contains sects of atheists, as well. Atheistic Hinduism at least predates the birth of Christmas, and one may argue even his great-grandparents.

Moreover, amongst the incalculable quantity of distinct Hindu deities (not including the yet incalculable amount of each deities manifestations and supernal and/or corporeal transmogrifications) their exists malevolent, benevolent, callous, empathic, destructive, creative, etc, deities.

But I sincerely do acknowledge the convenience and advantage allowed for by this disregard prepense. With such a politic way of circumventing unwritten rules of logical discourse by employing selection bias, hasty generalizations, etc, one could not—without at least a suppressed smirk—proffer such erroneous arguments of the form:

1.) The Bible/Qu'ran/et al affirm (ad nauseum and quite obsequiously, I find) the Abrahamic God's benevolence and love of His creation.

2.) With biblical exegesis, one may notice this benevolence and loving disposition frequently imputed to God only manifests itself intermittently and usually before or after God's commanding or permitting some deplorable and savagely brutal act(s). Thus, God contradicts his lovey-dovey, copacetic, and benign (cult of) personality. Therefore, he is either not omniscient, as surely His profound and all-knowing self would have the faculties to avoid sanguineous tantrums and contrariety.

However you—that is, OP—seem to not argue against the bible through the Bible. Instead, you're presumably contrasting the countenance of the New Testament's God 2.0 with the condition of the world as it presently is. This works, too.

The world's abject misery and despondency does not fit in with the Abrahamic God as His "divinely-inspired nonfiction" literature tries incompetently to demonstrate.

Not wanting to be discursive and therein upset anyone suffering from ADHD, dyslexia, borderline-retarded IQ, or those "tl;dr" oafs—the latter being one of a mere soupçon of American-made products, these days.

Your thread's main post seems tantamount to this New Atheism movement's quaint and sophistic notion that challenging the veracity of Abrahamic religions logically dismantles every other religion.

Envisage a hypothetical Wildebeest getting chased by a pack of hungery hyenas, ultimately collapsing from attrition in its legs and then—the wildebeest too enervated from its chase to fight, yet fully cognizant of what terror it faces—gets torturously gnawed, bitten, and masticated by a starving posse of ruthless hyena. While trauma doesn't kill it soon enough, it is slowly smothered by its own weight in a shallow puddle of its profusely transuding blood. Another wildebeest joins the Yawning Grave in Tanzania's Serengeti.

Now, to the bleeding-heart, emasculated, Western "male" with a case of Bambi Syndrome, such natural atrocities must impugn a God's every existence, as such animal mass-murder cannot exist under the management of a compassionate, caring, and omnibenevolent and omnipotent and omniscient entity.

Can it? Hmm.

Why not presuppose an omni-malevalent deity? Or an omni-ambivalent diety? Or an omnibenevolent diety such that His benevolence and morality are so ineffable and recondite as to be effectively impossible to theorize their whys and wherefore. Especially is this relevant if you're using merely the concensus and laws of your own culture's highly malleable, ephemeral, and cross-culturally very disparate to those notions of what constitutes morality in a different milieu.

A biblical critique is child's play. An attempt to seem like a budding Bertrand Russell by regurgitating the faulty and myopic reasoning you likely heard in a YouTube video is commiserable; concealing it within the diaphanous pretext of an interrogative statement is censurable.

I know the pain and consternation of having run out of ways in gainsaying or verbally one-uping your opponent(s) and their argument's—finding and mutilating their Achilles Hill. But you're not much unlike someone who, in playing a video game, purposely sets the difficulty to "Easy" so to seem like sort of an AI "pwning" United cognoscenti.

To up the difficulty and lower your cognitive distortions of dialectical grandeur, I proffer to you the following challenge:

Learn Classical Sanskrit to an advanced degree of communicative proficiency (like, say, a philologist or linguistic Indologist may).

Procure the prerequisite reading materials (untranslated versions have the advantage of retaining their original syntax and semantics, and thus don't suffer from lexical ambiguity, gauche and nonsensical paragraphs, heretofore untranslated lexical items, and generally a book of page after page of untoward drivel, guestimated lexemes, and an utter loss of the original Sanskrit author's tact, poetry, and wordplay. Yech! )

The religious Hindu texts I'd advise you delve into first —assuming you haven't failed learning Sanskrit without ripping your hair out and going mad—are thusly:
Mahabharata
Rigveda
Yajurveda
Samaveda
Atharvaveda
Samhita
Brahmanas
Aranyakas
Upanishads
Brihadaranyaka Upanishad
And all the Puranas.
It should take about 2 years to learn Sanskrit like you know you notice tongue. And maybe 4-7 years to survey and debate the pages of those times tomes.

At the outset, it may seem interminable and insurmountable a task, but cannot the same be said of any intellectual pursuit?

Oh, and don't think I took your terse OP seriously or as though it was more worth the time and cognition as expounding to an 8-year-old why the earth orbits the sun and the moon doesnt. I simply enjoy language.
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Acta est fabula, plaudite!
-Augustus Caesar
 
Well I actually meant the question as less of a refutation and more of a question. I too hit atheistic philosophy around twelve, but tired of it around my late teens. We sound similar in that regard.

I wouldn't necessarily say this question applies mostly to Christian theology - they do posit that God is love but not that the universe is God (even though he is omnipresent... but whatever). Actually, I'm more interested in the unnamed mystical line of thought advocated by the likes of Alex Grey and Bill Hicks. My psychedelic expeditions have never quite led me to the same conclusion, though I would like to believe it. But, perhaps it is possible to reconcile the world as it is with this view, and I'm simply not seeing how.

I did enjoy your posts in the topic about fear of death, too.

Reading Sanskrit Hindu texts on acid sounds like a worthy endeavour.
 
... then why is the universe like this? If you've ever had a mystical experience that led you to believe it, how do you reconcile it with an existence so full of torment and injustice? The world around us repeatedly proves to be utterly indifferent; there is no intent there, it just is. Or am I missing something?

Then why is the universe like this? "It just is". The rest is poetry.
 
The idea that the universe is God is a pantheistic idea. The idea that God is love is a theistic idea. These are two separate opposing worldviews. In the former, evil is only an illusion; in the later, evil is real but has its beginnings in the free will of men and angels.

As a pantheist I will agree existence is god.

God isn't perfect.
 
I would not recognize a higher lifeform if it was right on top of me. An ant under foot would have no idea that the sole of my crushing foot is a lifeform. The arrogance to pretend we know anything is outrageous.

Love is a theoretical construct, its definition is created by humans and can vary from person to person....maybe the idea of God is a similar thing
 
The problem I have with that one is that creatures without egos can clearly suffer as well. Unless you want to posit that every dog and insect has some vague sense of self - which is possible. But I do like that answer.

It's true that animals suffer, but they do not have culture and language. They do not engage in symbols and abstract forms which heighten separation to absurd levels. They also do not cling so steadfastly to, "I am me, and therefore I am exceptional". Animals are mostly pure instinct and momentary consciousness. With very few exceptions (maybe dolphins and elephants), they do not grieve the past and do not plan for the future.

The human world of ego is incredibly complicated yet illusory. If you spend time in nature, most of nature is on the "oneness" frequency by instinctual homogeneity, whereas humans are not.
 
I don't believe the Universe is God, or that God is love.. so I'm kinda pissing on your parade here ^_^ Mystical experiences up to the level of cosmic consciousness are clouded by emotion and relative human brain/mind mechanics. If you had the final experience (Enlightenment) you'd realize first that you're God, and that god 'just is'.. there's no good or bad, bliss or pain, it just is. As for the Universe, perhaps just one bubble or iteration, or room in a hallway of infinite length.. like this scene from Yellow Submarine (@17:25) http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xv95g8_yellow-submarine-1968-george-dunning-with-beatles-john-paul-george-and-ringo_shortfilms
 
As a pantheist I will agree existence is god.

God isn't perfect.

You do not believe existence is already perfect? If not, then what ultimate standard (other than subjective speculation) would you use to differentiate between the perfect and nonperfect? If you do believe existence is already perfect (evil being only an illusion), then what ultimate standard would you use to differentiate between the illusion and nonillusion? And how do you know the standard itself is not based on illusion?
 
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You my friend should listen to the ultimate badass Alan Watts. And read into the illusion of separation, the four noble truths, and other philosophies/religions of the east. They have a lot to offer?
 
... then why is the universe like this?

I'd say you're trying to draw conclusions from flawed assumptions. Love is a human construct to explain a neurological reaction that evolved to facilitate reproduction. The universe is a for the most part a vast vacuum interspersed with matter connected by gravitational waves.
 
I am God...and I am Love... I'm also sex.

So whatch you want from me? A hug and a kiss?

You've been here before... Dontch you remember boy?

You asked for this.
 
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