If the Drug War is Failing, Where did all the Cocaine Go?

Crime figures go up when you increase the amount of policing, and the amount of laws on the books to be policed.
This is a systemic problem; an ethnocultural problem, a class problem....but to quote Tuli Kupferberg;
"There's nothing fair in love of war"

Tis a war on the people of this planet. No borders, no boundaries, no compassion.
Just good ol' fashioned "rugged individualism" with a healthy serve of "might makes right".
Bit of corruption, excessive militarisation and profiteering thrown in for good measure.
We holed [sic] these truths to be self-evident...

Really though, it's a great bit of footwork on behalf of the segregationists.
Bravo.
 
he probly uses the ones that the government has stamped with their approval. you know, the ones that kill more people than the illegal ones
 
On the surface, if you do not think about it too long, it seems all other crimes involve harming others, except using drugs. So every debate requires an explanation of why drugs are illegal. The selling of drugs harms others, so that fits with other illegal activities and by the law of participation in a crime, the buying of drugs would also be illegal. Real tricky to understand. Had to point that out did I?

Selling someone a drug does not harm them. Drugs are inanimate objects, much like cars, guns, and soft drinks. If I sell you a car, or a gun, or a soft drink, I am not causing you harm. If you drive that car into a turnpike, shoot yourself in the head with the gun, or consume the soft drinks until you get diabetes, you have caused yourself harm.

It's very simple if you look at it from the perspective of the Golden Rule. People, generally, do not want to be murdered, raped, kidnapped, assaulted, defrauded, lied to, stolen from, or discriminated against, for example. But people generally want to be able to buy whatever inanimate objects they desire. So, if someone is looking to buy a certain drug, it would be within the confines of "treat others how you would like them to treat you" to sell it to them. The moral dimension of this act does not differ between the actions of a bartender selling you a drink, a cashier selling you a pack of smokes, a barista selling you a coffee at the café, a pharmacist selling you the drugs you are prescribed, or the street dealer selling you whatever it is you're looking for - unless, of course, you consider it intrinsically immoral to break a government-enacted law.

But I suppose that, given the fact that you claim that imprisonment is not intrinsically harmful, we just have very different criteria for what "harm" is.
 
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S.J.B. said:
...given the fact that you claim that imprisonment is not intrinsically harmful, we just have very different criteria for what "harm" is.
What you have present here is not in any way the statement I had made. The accurate context is this:
OPI8 - [heroin addicts] only real harm comes from the fact that the drug is illegal
ME - Nobody is harmed by being sentenced to prison.

Here is what you have presented:
ME - Nobody is harmed by being sentenced to prison.

This is the meaning of what I said:
Prison and heroin individually harm people financially, socially, and in many ways physically. If heroin does not harm people in these ways then neither does prison.

You asked me if I was being sarcastic. I said that being sarcastic would mean that paying a fine, having a record, and sitting in a cell are harmful and if you thought it was sarcasm then you did get it.

Selling someone a drug does not harm them. Drugs are inanimate objects, much like cars, guns, and soft-drinks.
If I am willing to accept this as true I would also be forced to accept that not allowing someone a drug also does no harm to them.

As I said in the Health Canada thread. I would happily sit in a cell and be fed and disciplined in accord with the law. Perhaps even educated and given treatment at these ideal prisons for privileges of good behavior. Without guilt these would not harm me either.

I accept that in reality prison is imperfect, as is heroin.

Selling a gun, car, or soda does no harm?

The earliest version of the golden rule is the Hammurabi code, in which is stated, "If a builder build a house for some one, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built fall in and kill its owner, then that builder shall be put to death."
 
Yes. Now imagine (surely you have a vivid imigination in order to believe in god?) that heroin was legal. Do you think any changes in this world would happen?

I am sick of dealing with you because not only am I drunk tonight, but I am xanaxed off my head. So I know I won't make any sense, but - no. I'll leave it at that.
 
What you have present here is not in any way the statement I had made. The accurate context is this:
OPI8 - [heroin addicts] only real harm comes from the fact that the drug is illegal
ME - Nobody is harmed by being sentenced to prison.

Here is what you have presented:
ME - Nobody is harmed by being sentenced to prison.

This is the meaning of what I said:
Prison and heroin individually harm people financially, socially, and in many ways physically. If heroin does not harm people in these ways then neither does prison.

You asked me if I was being sarcastic. I said that being sarcastic would mean that paying a fine, having a record, and sitting in a cell are harmful and if you thought it was sarcasm then you did get it.

Okay, I thought you were either being sarcastic or trolling at first but then you continued to defend that statement throughout the thread and I assumed it was neither.

If I am willing to accept this as true I would also be forced to accept that not allowing someone a drug also does no harm to them.

Generally, not selling someone an inanimate object does not harm them. Attempting to disallow, through force, any acquisition of an inanimate object, however, is a different story.

As I said in the Health Canada thread. I would happily sit in a cell and be fed and disciplined in accord with the law.

I would imagine this makes you different from almost everyone else in the world. People tend to value freedom.

The earliest version of the golden rule is the Hammurabi code, in which is stated, "If a builder build a house for some one, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built fall in and kill its owner, then that builder shall be put to death."

A builder building a home incorrectly is analogous to someone selling me an adulterated drug. I have not received what I have attempted to purchase, and have therefore been defrauded.

If, however, I buy very pure heroin that is advertised as such, I am not being defrauded. The harms of heroin are documented and known to me. I know this drug can be addictive to some, and that I can be poisoned if I consume an excessive dose, and these traits are not being denied by the seller. The same can be said for buying cigarettes at the corner store, or drugs at the pharmacy, except in these legal-and-regulated cases the harms are much more readily presented.
 
People should value their freedom. I do value my freedom but having been through many years of depression I would never consider prison the end of freedom. To think and to have emotion. I will not risk those freedoms and I know that drugs can cause more harm to me as an individual than a prison.

How I feel now compared with how I felt then, being in prison would still feel like an improvement. From what I understand of prison, having not been there, being aggravated day in and day out, by real people, would be a pleasant change. I am not saying this to be a smart ass. The further I get from depression the less and less I feel that way, and although I would prefer to stay out of prison naturally. I think prison is home to a majority of people with severe mental problems that require treatment, so they an get to a better place before being released. I think this way about the whole population there, whether they are drug users or not. I am not claiming to know there is any difference.

If people want prison to be a place to punish anybody they are not grasping the situation. Kill or fix. There is no solution where you make people worse or punish them without end. Prison must be a place where people find self improvement is possible.

The drugs I was sold did harm me. There was no reason for it. People punish themselves and others without reason and drugs and prisons are extension of what we are capable of on an individual level.

I would not simply say what I did was sarcasm, it was a serious message and something I think OPI8 needed to consider. The risk of dying in prison is less than being a heroin user; by a large margin. That is the ultimate comparison.

If you guys want to blame the war on drugs. I think you do that just to avoid thinking about it.

The number of regulations applied to the pharmaceutical industry came about because they are responsible for a lot that happens to their clients. Dealers are no less responsible and users who go to see doctors are no less responsible than those who go see dealers.
 
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The drugs I was sold did harm me.

Ah, the victim - it all makes sense now.

You know, drugs kind of fucked me up too, you know? But I don't blame anyone else for the choice I made. Drugs being illegal certainly didn't *stop* me from fucking myself up, nor did they you, evidently. And I don't think being depressed AND having a criminal record is any better than just being depressed, do you? So why so gung-ho for drug laws?

The risk of dying in prison is less than being a heroin user; by a large margin. That is the ultimate comparison.

An unquantified and unsubstantiated load of assumptive horse-shit. Can you demonstrate that being incarcerated is less harmful to an addict than, say, living in supported environment under a European-style heroin maintenance programme? Being in jail *might* be better than living as an absolute outcast without access to basic amenities, but it wouldn't *be* like that if drug users weren't being persecuted by the drug war.

And THAT is, by far, the most harmful consequence of the drug war - that people live shitty lifestyles because drugs are scarcer therefore more expensive, because they have to associate with criminals, because their addiction causes them to be ostracised, they can't work, etc. etc.

Bugger the criminal justice argument, remove prohibition and the lives of ordinary addicts on the street improves dramatically and the harm being done to society as a result of addiction declines

The number of regulations applied to the pharmaceutical industry came about because they are responsible for a lot that happens to their clients.

Dealers are no less responsible and users who go to see doctors are no less responsible than those who go see dealers.

Well, they ARE, actually, in every practical sense. Because they operate outside of the law they are not held to the same degree of accountability and quality-control as is the pharmaceutical industry. You can crap on about moral culpability but that's meaningless unless there is some sort of regulatory control of the market.
 
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People should value their freedom. I do value my freedom but having been through many years of depression I would never consider prison the end of freedom.
That makes no sense. The whole idea of prison is to take away the freedom of the individual.[/QUOTE]

To think and to have emotion. I will not risk those freedoms and I know that drugs can cause more harm to me as an individual than a prison.
Drugs that are on the black market, yes. This is a problem with the drugs being illegal in the first place. If you knew what you were taking, and knew what doses there were, unless you were as uneducated about life as drugs, you should be fine.

How I feel now compared with how I felt then, being in prison would still feel like an improvement. From what I understand of prison, having not been there, being aggravated day in and day out, by real people, would be a pleasant change.
Your feelpinions are not fact, they are not backed up by any reputable study (don't even bother finding some obscure right wing bullshit, taken out of context sentence in a 10,000 page piece of shit like you usually do, I won't bother to check because I know you are just trolling for a big fat male troll to come and take all your problems away.[/QUOTE]

The further I get from depression the less and less I feel that way, and although I would prefer to stay out of prison naturally. I think prison is home to a majority of people with severe mental problems that require treatment, so they an get to a better place before being released. I think this way about the whole population there, whether they are drug users or not. I am not claiming to know there is any difference.
This is so far off the mark that I shouldn't even respond to it.

You are saying that because you, personally, have had depression that the rest of the world needs to adjust to you're thoughts about a particular matter. I think you have much larger issues to deal with than coming on to this forum, disagreeing with everyone and basically trolling the fuck out of the place because you have a mental disorder.

Prison is not the place for someone who has smoked some pot, shot some heroin, or tripped on LSD (I'm not singling these people out, it's a generalization and sorry if I didn't list your drug of choice fellow BL's). Prison is also not the way to treat drug users with an addiction and/or a physical dependancy on any drug. Your logic is beyond rational, sane thinking. Please, get help from a professional and leave the drug message boards alone for a while. I'm sure the friendly paedophilein church will comfort you, it's a shame you're not a child (maybe you are, I don't know), otherwise they'd be MUCH more inclined to get close to you and listed to all of your troubles, both literally and figuratively.[/QUOTE]

Prison must be a place where people find self improvement is possible.
Oh they do, it's proven. Minor criminals come out absolutely much more educated. Much more educated in crime, how get get away with criminal acts and all kinds of crazy shit that god fearing people, if they understood, would actually want to ban prisons altogether. As they should ban the churches which methodically torture and rape children all over the world without any punishment. It's kind of like they're powerful, because they're so rich, don't pay tax, and have this image that they are untouchable by the law. That is because they are rich, untaxed and untouchable by the law.[/QUOTE]

The drugs I was sold did harm me.
It's taken this long to get out. You have been a victim of the war on drugs too. Wow. Instead of thinking about why the drugs you bought harmed you, your upbringing has conditioned you to believe that all drugs are bad, mmmkay. If drugs were legal (while I don't know your exact circumstances, nor do I really care) if they were legal, the chances of them harming you if you weren't an idiot and overdosed on them, knew all the contraindications and followed all the rules, then the chance of any well known drug harming you more than drinking too much is extremely rare. The fact that this is why you are on a crusade to ban all drugs speaks volumes for why you are so stubborn, at least I now have a valid reason to put you on my block list. You are simply a poor statistic of religeon who has been brainwashed and there is no hope for you. You are good at trolling, though.

I would not simply say what I did was sarcasm, it was a serious message and something I think OPI8 needed to consider. The risk of dying in prison is less than being a heroin user; by a large margin. That is the ultimate comparison.
The risk to me, a long time heroin user, dying of heroin is almost zero. The only possible way I would be killed by heroin is by choice, or the fact that it is illegal, so I could get a batch 10 times stronger than usual by accident, shoot it up and die. Thankfully, I have people around me with Naloxone, which reverses the affects of an opiate overdose. Therefore, it is safer for me to use heroin than it is to drive a car. There is no antidote to a car crash.

If you guys want to blame the war on drugs. I think you do that just to avoid thinking about it.
If you actually listened to arguments, you would have the same view as most of the posters on this board. The "War on Drugs" is what kills people, not the drugs.

I still don't know why you wanted to know why I was from Australia, but if it has any bearing or not on if I'm going to hell - believe me - I couldn't give a shit. I bet it would be a lot better there than having to put up with the likes of you anyway.

I quoted you this time, so don't go fucking changing your tune just because I've raised some facts that you disagree with, cunt. I bet you're a virgin with several children too. I read an article that said 30% (from memory) of "virgin" Christians believe their children were immaculately conceived. That's science, bitch.
 
Fuck it must have taken me a long time to type that. Ok pmose, Xanax, beer and a lack of any kind of sympathy towards you for hurting yourself with drugs has forced me to block you.

If you want to know, I suffered a massive drug induced brain problem too. I didn't turn to trolling, nor being a cunt for the sake of it though. I tried to improve myself, and I have done a mighty fine job when you consider where I came from. If you really want to discuss anything with me, PM me because I am no longer reading your posts. I am sick of reading them, to be honest.

One last thing, though. Try to be less of a cunt. You might find that you will become less depressed.
 
You are saying that because you, personally, have had depression that the rest of the world needs to adjust to you're thoughts about a particular matter.

I find love songs depress me. We should ban the pop-music industry immediately before more kids are harmed.
 
You can crap on about moral culpability but that's meaningless unless there is some sort of regulatory control of the market.

@pmose- Doctors are paid dividends by drug companies for prescribing drugs.. Not sure how morally culpable that is. And I think it's pretty obvious that regulatory control of a black market is conspicuously absent. the control of the black market comes only in the form of mass arrest/incarceration. It's population control.
 
I am not he who stated the hypothesis. It is not my burden to prove you are wrong, though I have in the past.
It is up to you to convince me, and based on what I know, this would be a miracle.
 
Good. Most non drug users ive met are arrogant and will generally hold it against drug users. But you arent like that, right?
 
Good. Most non drug users ive met are arrogant and will generally hold it against drug users. But you arent like that, right?
You know that is not accurate. I do not put the drug users all together. A prejudice toward non-drug users is the same as a prejudice toward drug users.
 
bit_pattern seems like a pretty chill dude. if he has a prejudice against somethin, thats his own business. certianly none of mine.
 
bit_pattern seems like a pretty chill dude. if he has a prejudice against somethin, thats his own business. certianly none of mine.
Well these things will take care of themselves then won't they?
I do not think he is being chill at all. I think he is being manipulative and ridiculous.
 
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