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If God knows everything, how can there be free will?

Interesting topic.

JessFR said:
What exactly is a choice? If I had a document in my possession right now, that detailed everything you will do for the rest of your life. Every choice you will make and why. Then are those choices you will make in the future truly yours? Or is it just an illusion. And if it's an illusion, is it a satisfactory illusion? Is it still a choice?
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In my view, yes, it is still a choice. And equally, following on from this, free will still exists even if everything is predetermined.

Choice and free will are terms we use to refer to the decision making processes by which human beings take one of a set of possible courses of action - and in this context, by "possible", I mean possible given the information available to an external observer, which is always the definition that we use for things being considered possible, for practical purposes. Of course, if you are an omnipotent being, able to view the causal mechanism of choice, then from your perspective, it is impossible that any given human can decide to act in any way other than the way that you already know that they will act - but there is still a decision making process occurring, and if you are not actively interfering, then these decisions are still "free".

Once you strip down the mechanism of choice, which is the brain evaluating circumstances based on previous experiences of the individual as well as hardcoded genetic data from billions of years of evolution, then I do not believe it makes any sense to consider it anything but a deterministic process, even if it is an extremely complex one and even if there are multiple randomising factors. However I think that words like choice and free will still have meaning within the context of human lives.

I would concede however that this is not perhaps a definition of free will and choice that many people would readily accept - although I think, if pressed, those people would find choice very hard to define. As I see it it doesn't make sense for choice to be anything but a deterministic process. If we approach it from the perspective that decision making is something innately magical that human beings do based on the strength of their morals (or some other quasi-religious, somewhat vague definition) then how do humans initially learn what is the right and/or wrong thing to decide? From what they are taught and the kind of person they are... ie, their life experiences, and their genetics. However I think the idea that there isn't something magical about choice is difficult even for those who aren't religious just because people like to feel that they are in control of their own lives. But for me, the fact that everything is highly likely to be predetermined has little relevance to the meaning of words like choice and free will.
 
there is a cabalistic analogy for our particular position in free will. When we state the concept of "god" wanting to give man free will, how free are we and what is the domain of free will, what can we actually do? because obviously we aren't free to do ANYTHING we so wish, we are bound by certain laws of physics and bound in numerous ways with limitation. free will is not a totally inclusive concept. the analogy is to conceptualize a person traveling down a river in a canoe. if the river is turning to the right, the man must turn to the right. he can't make a left at that moment without forfeiting his canoe float. if the river comes to a place of calm, the man cannot experience the excitement of the rapids and vice versa. if the man longs for calm while he finds himself in the rapids....well you get the drift.

human life is like that river. our free will is that, within the confines of the river we can make decisions that will either help or hurt our canoe trip, we can steer around turbulent rocks, we can get caught up and learn from mistakes, we can turn left, we can turn right, we can slow down, etc. within that river, within that canoe we have some freedom and choice to make, but free will is not synonymous with total freedom to do absolutely anything we wish. the river and the canoe would be analogous to our body and lives.

another cabalistic analogy for free will is looking at life as a divine chess game. Imagine you are playing chess with an absolute international grandmaster and you are a proficient yet average player. the grandmaster is so skilled, he could virtually allow you to make any wish you could possibly muster and the chances he can still win the game in the particular way he wants are unharmed. the grandmaster could move in such a way where if he did not want the game to end in just one or two moves, he could draw it out and could let you play the game for a very long time, allowing you the freedom and free will to make your moves as your wish, and he just keeps drawing it out longer and longer. he would manipulate the game in such a way so as to keep you moving and moving , forever. you could not possibly overcome this grandmaster, but you have the geniune free will to chose your approach anyways. if the grandmaster wanted your chess bishop to go to a particular square, not only could he make it happen but he could make it happen indirectly by altering YOUR moves into it by moving his pieces to make your bishop end up there. this is the analogy of free will. life is to play this divine chess game. we make a move, life makes a move, we possess total freedom in the moves we make, but the universe makes it moves in the way it does, having tremendous influence on where we will end up despite our seeming freedom to move wherever we want.
 
Vastness said:
Interesting topic.

In my view, yes, it is still a choice. And equally, following on from this, free will still exists even if everything is predetermined.

Choice and free will are terms we use to refer to the decision making processes by which human beings take one of a set of possible courses of action - and in this context, by "possible", I mean possible given the information available to an external observer, which is always the definition that we use for things being considered possible, for practical purposes. Of course, if you are an omnipotent being, able to view the causal mechanism of choice, then from your perspective, it is impossible that any given human can decide to act in any way other than the way that you already know that they will act - but there is still a decision making process occurring, and if you are not actively interfering, then these decisions are still "free".

Once you strip down the mechanism of choice, which is the brain evaluating circumstances based on previous experiences of the individual as well as hardcoded genetic data from billions of years of evolution, then I do not believe it makes any sense to consider it anything but a deterministic process, even if it is an extremely complex one and even if there are multiple randomising factors. However I think that words like choice and free will still have meaning within the context of human lives.

I would concede however that this is not perhaps a definition of free will and choice that many people would readily accept - although I think, if pressed, those people would find choice very hard to define. As I see it it doesn't make sense for choice to be anything but a deterministic process. If we approach it from the perspective that decision making is something innately magical that human beings do based on the strength of their morals (or some other quasi-religious, somewhat vague definition) then how do humans initially learn what is the right and/or wrong thing to decide? From what they are taught and the kind of person they are... ie, their life experiences, and their genetics. However I think the idea that there isn't something magical about choice is difficult even for those who aren't religious just because people like to feel that they are in control of their own lives. But for me, the fact that everything is highly likely to be predetermined has little relevance to the meaning of words like choice and free will.
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I entirely agree. Which is why the idea that it's all predetermined doesn't bother me at all. The illusion of free will, the way most people seem to think of it anyhow, is more than enough.

But, I agree that most people might not share this view, which is why I was curious what your answer would be to my hypothetical. Personally, I'd probably have said that we don't have free will, but only because I'm using a different definition than you. I don't actually disagree with your underlying belief system at all. I just have different definitions for the words.
 
Brain surgeons around the world, and I, professionally, studied the works of one of the lead scientists, Damagio, and he has shown that a) nature/nurture are both in play meaning we are determined by our genes and by every experience we undergo or every stimuli entering our subcounscious where everything is stored, then the subconscious brings a thought to surface, and we have no say about which thought, and he showed with pulses that we are a fraction later only aware of this pulse, this thought, because a recursive structure is making up our brains and a signal has to loop back to this pulse to make us aware of that thought.

This creates the illusion we come up with a thought, but actually we totally don't, and from these pulses (thoughts, feelings,...) follow our actions...

So that eliminates free will and suggests a pre-determined universe (multiverse) as well, and this fits perfect in to the naturalist movement their train of thinking...

I'm with them! :-)
 
JessFR said:
I entirely agree. Which is why the idea that it's all predetermined doesn't bother me at all. The illusion of free will, the way most people seem to think of it anyhow, is more than enough.

But, I agree that most people might not share this view, which is why I was curious what your answer would be to my hypothetical. Personally, I'd probably have said that we don't have free will, but only because I'm using a different definition than you. I don't actually disagree with your underlying belief system at all. I just have different definitions for the words.
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you can only have a good debate, meaning to either prove propositions, from each participant right or wrong, also yourself maybe: falsification, also gaining new knowledge, which is the point of a debate, but one can't have different definitions or else you are each debating bout some different = pointless, also, start a debate by defining terms correct by way of ethymologie.
 
I would like to expound my previous reply. This is a little more thought out.
My theory is that we were made is His image(Genesis 1:26-27). We have a soul, spirit, and flesh. God has three aspects that we know of. God could be the considered the soul, the seat of emotions. There are a lot of passages that claim that God is jealous, wrathful and compassionate, and is the embodiment of love(I believe love is the full spectrum of emotions) when God acts/reacts He expels that emotion to it's greatest severity. The Holy Spirit, who is mentioned all over scripture. Which is the power of God and interacts with this timeline directly, His emotions are something driving that power, so if He is wrathful, it will be extreme. The Savior, Isaiah prophesied His coming and salvation, it is generally accepted by some denominations of believers that Jesus fits Isaiah's description of the Savior. Jesus was a person who is made flesh. That would be God's flesh.

Since, God Himself has free will. We are in His image. Therefore we have free will. There is a Bible verse that kinda debates that theory, still contemplating that. (Isaiah 55: 8-9)

I believe He set things in motion (coinciding with evolution) there was a Bible teacher who knew his stuff, he did a topic on creation. Through that I learned that the word day is misinterpreted, it is actually an old Hebrew word that actually means, 'an undetermined period of time'. So, it says that there is the day and night, then it says that it took an undetermined period of time to complete it's creation (Genesis 1:1-5) I cannot remember the word and am finding it hard to research it online and can't find my papers in my notes.

We were created from the Earth sculpted from it's elements, which could be the best way to describe the process of creation with old Hebrew. Which means, He is responsible for the process still, but it took an undetermined amount of time. It could have been day and night for 1,000,000 years. We are bound by time, so we have evovled into His masterpiece. (Ephesians 2:10) or still evolving.

I believe we are the ones who shape our will and we ultimately decide our choices. I believe God comes in and out if our timeline. Since He is infinite He has already seen the outcome and can implement His will on the timeline to alter the possible outcome. This would be instantaneous He would already know the outcome of it because He willed it, however He only does this in key parts of scripture. With everything else He let's us decide, and He sees that in the timeline as well. That is how He is omniscient (All knowing). An example of it is the prophets. God let His spirit fall on them and give them glances into the future and heavenly wisdom that turned the heart of David. They are used to implement God's will. Saying He is there at thay very moment using His spirit to move on the Earth and impose His will.

The Bible verse that says I'm not willing that any would perish but come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9) That implies we ultimately decide our fate. The new Testament has the verse about how we should pray and it says 'thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven.' Meaning His will is followed in heaven with no deviation, but on Earth our will is our fate. So that prayer invites God's will to be done here through people, who are empowered by the Holy Spirit.
So God's will is in several key places in scripture, and it has an underlying theme, turn to Him and be received by God. But, we do not have to follow His will. We ultimately shape our destiny and with the freedom to follow our own will.
 
i've thought of the examples used many times, think other people have too (obviously). details i also consider when thinking about it in those contexts:

i can choose to make a wrong or bad choice and i can choose to make a right or good choice. i can choose not to make a choice at all. wrong is not always being bad, right is not always doing good and not making a choice can have multiple outcomes. choices can determine what happens to me, a group of people or something that has nothing to do with humanity.

the limitations is set on how many choices there are in this universe by the boundaries that are placed on it. some of those boundaries leave variables open to adjust and change what is possible or what we think is from what we already know, especially seeing as no one knows what the future holds exactly, by what choices are made. like the river slowly corroding the land over time and altering it's course. it always begins at one point and ends but the course it takes to get there can be redirected over time, by the universe, fate and other controlling influences as well as god. our choices shape the river as well. even if we did not make choices that river would alter it's course over time and the rapids, rocks and other long term variables would change with it.

like laying out all the possible choices on one sheet of paper and on another laying out all the possible choices that have some in common with the first but some that are different. then overlaying those two pieces of paper and slowly turning one in one direction and the other in another direction before moving them back to overlapping again. different choices line up at different times and the choices we make influence which set of choices are possible next or are not possible. even the beginning and ending of the river can be changed over a long enough period of time.

i guess maybe something new to add to the thread:

"if god knows everything how can their be free will?"

what does god knowing everything have to do with us having free will aside from god giving us free will and knowing everything? aren't the two mutually exclusive?

would a better question be how can we get to a level of understanding, being or consciousness that would allow us to see more of the details to better understand why we would have free will? is that possible? doesn't god want us to make our own choices even if god is omniscient and omnipotent? to learn, to grow to thrive and prosper; and most of all to experience the reality of this universe and to love?

otherwise aren't we just spinning our wheels? i had a choice to pick between two drugs. i thought about it, tried to weigh the decision based on outcome, randomness and experience the best i could, made a choice and had a good time. would my decision have been any less worth it, would i have any less fun if i chose the other drug or no drugs at all? if god knew what drug i would pick then is there no point in me using up the resources in trying to make a choice that was predetermined? would've i had more fun investing myself in just taking the one i was supposed to and get on with it instead of dwelling on it?

even though god might know everything and then present us with the opportunity to make our own choices and choose our own path, might it be enlightening? god marks on the piece of paper the choices one person has made up to a certain point in their life. the person comes to another critical juncture of choosing, sees that up until that point the person has made a typical set of choices and might bet that the person is going to make the similar choices they have in the past, lets say making wrong choices. but then the person makes a good choice and surprises god. i don't pretend to know what god thinks or why god created this universe and life in it, i got a few ideas. but creating something, setting it in motion and seeing how it progresses and either flourishes or fails; isn't this what humans do with inventions, creations, societies, ideas and even their own children? doesn't that give us something in the moment that makes life a lil more worth living, something that lets us know we are alive and add some mystery and excitement to life? is this one way god has created us in his own image?

you know the fireworks on the fourth of july are going to be planned for. you know they are either going to work and light up the sky or not. you've seen fireworks before and even looked up the new ones they were adding this year. you know they are trying to sync them up to music you can listen to via a radio station. you know all of this but when you see the fireworks light up the sky is it any less spectacular or entertaining?

i recently got to view the 4th of july from a different vantage point than i ever have. it was as beautiful as it was fearful to see such a wider landscape this time, to hear multiple booms from many different locations spread miles apart and all the different colors and patterns light up the night sky. the fear was from the booms echoing across the landscape compared to what i can only imagine being in a war zone late at night having missiles, canons and bombs go off but even with the cacophony of sounds and myriads of colors going off it added to the beauty and awe of it all. the chaos mixing with the art. the patterns of each area setting off it's own set of fireworks but not syncing up with those of their neighbors a few miles away... almost as beautiful as watching the sky die, destroying something beautiful or a universe being born. i've seen lots of firework shows before but nothing like this. did god see this? did god want me to see this? is it the same if i saw it while it was happening but god did not, maybe god turned gods real time view to another corner of the universe while i watched and enjoyed it, did god do that on purpose? did god not want to watch it as well or did god find something else better to watch?

knowing the possible outcomes from the choices, did it take anything away from my experience of it?
 
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let's say you learn earlier in life your going to die later on. sure we all die eventually and like it was stated we live longer periods of time today but your not going to live to see 70, your going to live to see maybe your 40's. no doctor told you this, you didn't receive a letter in the mail. you just got a message through life saying the river of fate is going to snuff out your life within a general age range of 5 years later for you down the road and maybe you even you glean from that insight that it's going to be in a terrible way.

does any choice you make have any different outcome on when or how you will die?

does anything you do really matter if you have no free will to choose whether or not you can avoid that predetermined outcome?
 
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^^I would say your specific choices are ALL that matters, given the known outcome.

Your first post is a lot like how I think about it. To me, god knowing what choices you'll make and you having free will are not mutually exclusive. Maybe god just knows which choices you'll make, based on previous choices, based on where you are in your life. He can see this unfolding latticework in a way that we can't understand, but it doesn't invalidate our own choices forming this latticework in the first place.
 
who knows

I won't speak for a deity other than that of a commanding Abrahamic one, but given a god of that nature, choice is illusory. We could speculate that he is, through some impossibly complicated process, all knowing because he can read the universe like some kindergarten math.

If that were the case, which I'm more likely to buy into, then I don't consider it so Abrahamic. What's more is that kind of god seems less in control of the universe and more of an ever observant, active entity within it.
 
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@Nixiam: the abraham religions confused me for the longest time. i got a really good vibe off the new testament and learned it was because that old school biblical rage took a back seat to love. so plugging it into to what your saying the "love" factor definitely supports this.

to put it one way he has to upkeep and maintain what he has going on here (on top of that maybe start one new thing every few hundred millennia or maybe not), as well as being the parent of this universe by sitting back and letting things play out without his interfering all the time. he's been gone awhile and i'm not sure what the intent of that is other than to see where we're headed with what we're doing right now.

personally even after learning about all this "love" that is now the focus i still can't shake loose that these abraham religions are too one sided today. over the years the scriptures have been re-written and not just for interpretation purposes of posterity either. i wonder what he makes of all this (this all under the assumption god being alive is the god of abraham religions).

setting the usual structured religion aside and assuming god is omnipotent and gave us free will, is god on vacation? if so did god see that coming or is it more like you getting tired of your 9-5 job and you just up and going on vacation to the bahamas one day without notice?
 
invegauser said:
setting the usual structured religion aside and assuming god is omnipotent and gave us free will, is god on vacation? if so did god see that coming or is it more like you getting tired of your 9-5 job and you just up and going on vacation to the bahamas one day without notice?
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Seems more likely that "He" was never there to begin with...
 
^ "He" huh?! i relate the abraham religions with god being a he because it's something others naturally associate with on top of scriptures and all that. made me laugh all the same. :D

i've heard this said or asked before. what's your thoughts on "He" not being there to begin with?
 
I mean I think it's true, I don't think there's an Abrahamic god, or any singular entity that looks over us. I believe that the universe itself is simply a force of being/awareness, and that we are all the universe experiencing itself subjectively in one infinite moment. I am you and you are me and we are he and all that.
 
^ well i have to disagree. what i think is going on is:

i mean i think it's true, I don't think there's an abrahamic god, or any singular entity that looks over us. I believe that the universe itself is simply a force of being/awareness, and that we are all the universe experiencing itself subjectively in one infinite moment. I am you and you are me and we are he and all that.



that being said you have your opinion and i have mine and whoever gets to the after life first has dibs on all the hedonism and debauchery they can handle or if there's nothing then we have a contest to see who can run the most laps around limbo in an eternity.

on second thought i should bring a deck of cards just in case, maybe a lil gurt for a speed round.

in my darker times i do wonder about the abraham god. one such question: if he created us in his image, is it like setting up the hot wheels car track so it dead ends by running into the door or off the side of the couch and into the kitty litter box?
 
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Humans absolutely have free will. The reason why people think that we don't is because they are looking at the circumstances that humans are forced to endure, i.e. suffering without a choice; but it's not the circumstances which determine our freedom, but our ability to choose our reaction to those circumstances and ascribe meaning to them. So people are mistaking the trees for the forest.

The reason why people more and more are leaning toward nihilism is because they are made to feel ashamed for being unhappy, rather than being instilled with a sense of pride. So they are unhappy about the fact that they are unhappy, rather than finding meaning in their unhappiness. The unhappiness is pathologized like it needs to be corrected; but if suffering is your destiny (temporarily or permanently), then it's your task to find meaning in it. Nobody can do this work for you, and your task is irreplaceable because you, individually, cannot be replaced. Making it through suffering is a real accomplishment because most of us suffer against our will, and yet many of us derive meaning from our suffering. It is spiritually rich in a way that cannot be boiled down to biology or some other kind of mechanical process. It's the ability to choose meaning which characterizes our free will; and we have the ability to do this because there is a part of us that is never touched by circumstances. It always remains free. It's the difference between people devolving to savages when they suffer or becoming saints. The differentiation is not spontaneous or a product of some pre-determined thing... it's because of how people exercise their free will.

The nature vs. nurture thing is BS. It's too simple and it's been disproven. It's our nature to exercise free will. Even during the holocaust, people were having spiritual experiences in the camps. It's been written about, extensively. Yet people also devolved into nothing more than simple animals in the camps, or died immediately. It was usually the people who decided to chose that life had no real meaning and that all was lost who died or decompensated into subhumans.

And it's the people who find meaning in life who continue to live, thrive, and find happiness; and happiness is not something you acquire, it's a byproduct of having meaning. If you try to make someone laugh they can't, but if you tell them a funny joke then the laughter is automatic. The same is true of happiness. People with meaningful lives are happy; and meaning is a moment to moment dynamic, rather than a generalized concrete answer. The meaning is formed through how you respond to what life asks of you, rather than what you ask of life; instead of you questioning life, it is questioning you to see what your answer to it is; it's in your response to day to day tasks and responsibilities, in your personal creations, in your love for others, in the every day ways that you choose or don't choose to transcend yourself. The constant presence of this choice, whether we are aware of it or not, is the substance of our free will.
 
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Maybe god knows all the possibilities and outcome for every instance and when something is done, that is free will, where all of the other outcomes just turn to dust. I think people in general overthink GOD.

Death will be interesting to say the least. Not that I want it to come anytime soon. It might be a real trip. I don't think it is a bad thing, we fear it because nobody, for a fact knows what happens and where we go if anywhere. Everyone has ideas and some sound more credible than others but it is purely speculative.

The other thing the human race is guilty of is vanity, do you really think GOD knows all, did God know you were going to get the parking space next to the door, does he know you pick your nose and eat it....I don't think God would know or care about lots of things. But hey we all believe or don't believe in whatever it is, if it makes sense or you like it, good, after all there will come a time when you really do find out so just in case don't be an asshole
 
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@Foreigner: i don't understand the connection between nature vs. nurture and spiritual experiences you spoke of. to me nature vs. nurture means whether or not a person will raise their kids to be needy lil bastards, self sufficient or if both are taught in moderation; a healthy combination of self sufficient and happy. to me spiritual experiences happen regardless of circumstances. you can keep cramming them down inside you and not accepting them but if they are meant to happen they will, plus it doesn't mean you got rid of them, just ignore them. or did i miss something?

the rest of your post i agree with plus very astute and well said. it's like you reached into my insights and plucked them to drop on digital paper.

@wallywogs: i think people think too often of god in the wrong context, a veritable patchwork of whatever is convenient, and thinking too much like this makes it worse, especially with most if not all of the organized religions. death is excruciating painful even when it is fast and i hope i go by a very, very long drop into a rock. even death by pain killers involves quiet a lot of pain i would imagine. maybe what's best is just having my head turn to ash, here one second gone the next. poof!

what awaits us on the other side none of us are ready for. i don't think the psyche and how we picture it in our heads prepares us for the actual experience of it. regardless of what that actually is.

i don't think even if god is omnipotent (omniscient being one trait of that) that god cares if we pick our nose, not like it determines the fate of the universe... or does it?! swallowing that boogie might wipe out an entire species of alien that would have bettered mankind and helped us take our place among the stars.

asshole huh?! i'm screwed. :)
 
My knee-jerk ( and also totally considered ) position is that living a mindful life was probably the message of a great many positive speakers on the nature of God.

Jesus, as a very successful and energizing socialist radical, was very right in his estimation of a great many things. IMO

What hacks and the like have done with his message is a very different story!

The fallout of the appropriation and perversions of his words/teachings linger on in all the "memes" that frame many "christian" individualized realities.
 
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