Ibogaine for treating drug dependence. What is a safe dose?

[DotChem]

I thought I'll share this: Currently used high doses (500 mg) of Ibogaine may not be necessary for anti-addiction effect according to this new study out of New Zealand.
Doses as low as 50 times lower(0.87mg/Kg) than currently used (20-40mg/Kg) good enough to treat BOTH opioid WD and long term abstinence in rats. Making Ibogaine pretty safe. way more safer than caffeine as far as cardiac arrhythmia issue is concerned since at this doses probably wotn see QT problem. Certainly way safer than cocaine. This is very interesting finding imho since at this doses there wont be any significant 5HT and/or kappa activation and induced hallucinations. Nor any significant NMDA antagonism or nicotinic modulation either! Ki is in the 10uM in almost all these (in invitro binding assay!) Which beg the question: what exactly is the mechanism of Ibogaine anti-addiction effect?

The indole alkaloid ibogaine, present in the root bark of the West African rain forest shrub Tabernanthe iboga, has been adopted in the West as a treatment for drug dependence. Treatment of patients requires large doses of the alkaloid to cause hallucinations, an alleged integral part of the patient's treatment regime. However, case reports and case series continue to describe evidences of ataxia, gastrointestinal distress, ventricular arrhythmias and sudden and unexplained deaths of patients undergoing treatment for drug dependence. High doses of ibogaine act on several classes of neurological receptors and transporters to achieve pharmacological responses associated with drug aversion; limited toxicology research suggests that intraperitoneal doses used to successfully treat rodents, for example, have also been shown to cause neuronal injury (purkinje cells) in the rat cerebellum. Limited research suggests lethality in rodents by the oral route can be achieved at approximately 263mg/kg body weight. To consider an appropriate and safe initial dose for humans, necessary safety factors need to be applied to the animal data; these would include factors such as intra- and inter-species variability and for susceptible people in a population (such as drug users). A calculated initial dose to treat patients could be approximated at 0.87mg/kg body weight, substantially lower than those presently being administered to treat drug users. Morbidities and mortalities will continue to occur unless practitioners reconsider doses being administered to their susceptible patients. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27426011

 

[serotonin2A]

They are not claiming that low doses would be effective at treating addiction in humans. The authors think that dosing should start at 1 mg/kg and then be increased incrementally in successive studies until the minimum effective dose is determined.

From the text:

"An appropriate and safe dose for humans remains unknown. Nevertheless, based on limited animal data, and applying appropriate safety factors, a maximum oral dosage limit of less than 1 mg/kg should be adhered to. This then may be incrementally increased, using appropriate clinical trials that closely monitor indices of human toxicity, to establish a dose that is both safe and efficacious for patients seeking treatment for drug dependency. Until such a dose has been established for humans, a moratorium should be put in place to prevent any further unnecessary deaths in patients seeking treatment for drug dependence, particularly those with underlying comorbidities that are so often associated with long-term drug use."

 

[DotChem]

my bet! I didn't get to read whole the paper.. no ace$$. the abstract sounds like low doses are as good as large one.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

sci-hub.cc

Plug the DOI for papers you want in there and it'll fake the access token and nab it for free from the publishers.

 

[DotChem]

^ thanks for the link..

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

Personally I reckon the site should be stickied for people. It OWNS. Props to its creatrix.

 

[asecin]

dotchem did you figure out safe dose and did you try it yet

 

[DotChem]

^ It is really difficult to figure that out. Here is the problem: most of people who've tried 500mg or more will violently VOMIT the dose. The drug has strong emetic effect and will be vomited before it gets absorbed. I am not sure if it is central emetic or just digestive tract irritant. In the latter case, IV-ing or butt-plugging will solve the problem although I would strongly not recommend IVing. So when used orally, in practice you're not ingesting 500 mg, but more like 50 mg or less of IBG hydrochloride. Some people will redose @ 500 mg after vomiting initial dose. Or with the roots bark total alkaloid extract indigenous people will redose over and over in intervals of hours to "BREAK OPEN THE HEAD" meaning to bring the total content of the mind to the surface to awareness".

IMHO it is not really necessary to take large doses (500 mg or more) as far as opiates dtox is concerned. Lots of dtox clinics will suggest doses of 500 mg (1X or 2x if the first one is vomited. The reason I think large doses are not necessary for opiates dtox is that: There are roughly 2 phases after taking Ibogaine: The first oneirogen, dream-like phase, to "break open the head" (where you may be "seeing" and "talking" to your long ago dead ancestors or reliving your own birth complete with the voice of people who were present..no kidding!) which last anywhere from 2 to less than 8 h may not be apparent with low doses (50 mg or less). So unless the intention is to pay a vist to ancestors, it is not really necessary!

But the second phase, the psychological introspection phase (which may last days) may still be present even with low doses (I mean as low as 10 mg!). During this phase, try to think of opiates (or any cues that reminds one of opiates or other addictives you trying to get rid) and watch the total absence of the usual craving. In my opinion, this is the phase where the re-wiring of the brain is taking place: re-setting the brain to pre-opioids experience State. The brain is now completely indifferent whether to take drugs or not. For most people that lasts anywhere from 6 motnhs to years to forever. I think 50 mg (may be 2x) will be fine IMHO (disclaimer: seek proper medical help and/or help especially with set and setting. The indigeous people I mention above use a chaperon to guide the trip. As for disappearance of the physical WD of opiates, even less than 50 mg will do the job. but that is my opinion: I dont have any scientific studies to back it up (hope the gOvernment give me money so I can figure but that wont happen!..since the molecule is ILLEGAL at least if you live in the US!

NB: the biggest concern about Ibogaine is cardiac arrythmia. But IMHO this is way overstated and is only apparent after ingesting grams of IBG which is totally stupid. Almost all of the reported deaths are propbably due to other factors. Such as for example DO NOT TAKE HEROIN while undergoing treatment which will make sense if one assume that the whole body and mind has been rewiring and is now no longer tolerant making a "normal dose" deadly!!! It is probably way safer than cocaine and other stims in this regards. The reported LD50 (lethal 50% dose) in mice is 630mg/Kg. Adjusted to humans correspond to about 120mg/Kg or 9600 mg (9 grams!) so it is really not the drug (at therapeutic doses) that is responsible for the fatalities but other factors...BUT ALWAYS: SET AND SETTINGS is the key..