Bupe I need help with quitting bupe

[BosanacX]

After 3 years of oxy I have been on bupe on various doses around 5-6 years. Right now I am on 8-9 mg a day sublingual

- It is giving me bad stomach pain and has possibly been the cause of other gut issues.
- It is destroying my teeth like crazy.
- It won't let me heal from my depersonalization because it is still damn opiod. I wish I quit my oxy cold turkey back then. But sub is harder 10x to quit cold turkey.
- horrible wait gain

So I have 2 questions.

1. What's the longest you have been on suboxone?
2. and more importantly.....when I try to go under 9 mg my depression goes full-blown. In that state, Id take anything let alone bupe. However, due to the reasons above I HAVE TO quit asap.
3. Is sublocade a good option to quit?

Does someone have a piece of advice? I have tried antidepressants but no use. Is there a way to quit without going speck by speck every month?

 

[chicken hoagie]

Hey there bud. Suboxone patient here.


Having been on and off suboxone several several times, I can tell you a large portion of where your difficulties are coming from is the placebo effect. If you have been on suboxone for any amount of time 4mg or higher, you have saturated all of your opioid receptors..so literally ever receptor has suboxone binded to it. I can almost guarantee that you will find no difference in effects taking 4mg than you will taking 8, 16, 32..you are literally just increasing side effects at that point, and that may be where your problems are.


Start taking 2mg or less, you will slowly open those receptors back up. Also, are you spitting your dose out after it sits in your mouth? Or do you snort it? The naloxone will fuck your stomach up badly. I used to get deathly ill some days the first year i was on it, even if i was taking the same 8-16mg a day as scheduled. It was too much.

Also, have you considered ketamine therapy? Right now it is only FDA approved to treat treatment resistant depression, but studies show huge promise for opioid addiction, as NMDA antagonists are known for desensitizing opioid receptors, making them sensitive again. The goal you want to aim for is to get on the vivitrol shot my man. That resets your receptors to factory defaults, before you ever took an opioid in your life. But its a double edged sword and thats how you have to view it. It can bring you back to life, but you will be tempted to get high again and because your receptors are fresh your risk of overdosing is HUGE. An 8mg suboxone would have you so trashed you would think youre overdosing..30mg or more of methadone could easily kill you. Let me know if you have any other questions dawg. Stay strong

 

[chicken hoagie]

I had a best friend overdose on fake xanax pills that were pressed fentanyl..he was a heroin needle addict for years, even chewed on fentanyl patches daily. He eventually recovered, got the vivitrol shot, ate 4 fake xanax pills and died. He was the last person i ever expected as a drug user to overdose and die. He survived a LOT of fucked up nights. He had a wise and rugged personality despite his drug use. Ill add that he also had no intention of relapsing, he was prescribed xanax and just needed extra. So be careful man. If you get off, the relapse is what gets almost all of us addicts.

 

[BosanacX]

Hey there bud. Suboxone patient here.


Having been on and off suboxone several several times, I can tell you a large portion of where your difficulties are coming from is the placebo effect. If you have been on suboxone for any amount of time 4mg or higher, you have saturated all of your opioid receptors..so literally ever receptor has suboxone binded to it. I can almost guarantee that you will find no difference in effects taking 4mg than you will taking 8, 16, 32..you are literally just increasing side effects at that point, and that may be where your problems are.


Start taking 2mg or less, you will slowly open those receptors back up. Also, are you spitting your dose out after it sits in your mouth? Or do you snort it? The naloxone will fuck your stomach up badly. I used to get deathly ill some days the first year i was on it, even if i was taking the same 8-16mg a day as scheduled. It was too much.

Also, have you considered ketamine therapy? Right now it is only FDA approved to treat treatment resistant depression, but studies show huge promise for opioid addiction, as NMDA antagonists are known for desensitizing opioid receptors, making them sensitive again. The goal you want to aim for is to get on the vivitrol shot my man. That resets your receptors to factory defaults, before you ever took an opioid in your life. But its a double edged sword and thats how you have to view it. It can bring you back to life, but you will be tempted to get high again and because your receptors are fresh your risk of overdosing is HUGE. An 8mg suboxone would have you so trashed you would think youre overdosing..30mg or more of methadone could easily kill you. Let me know if you have any other questions dawg. Stay strong

Thanks for reply. So you were on nad off? wow? How long were you on?
I let the pi;; melt under my tongue and thats it. I was on as high as 24 mg but managed to come down to 8 or sometimes 9 because of depressive symptoms.
I will try again to go lower. I believe you that if you go from 24 to 12 theres no difference but lets gope it was a reversed placebo.
That fucking drug is causing my stomach pain and I have some narrowing on my bile duct and doctors said that could be the cause.
So quitting it is a must but we don't have ketamine here in Canada. I was thinking to go on MAOI's (Parnate). They are supposed to help TRD
Oh also, my mu receptors are fucked. In 2019 I switched from suboxone to oxy again for 10 months and did not feel high ever once. I only was able to find 1 person online with this phenomenon. But I am glad they can't get me high.

B.

 

[BosanacX]

I had a best friend overdose on fake xanax pills that were pressed fentanyl..he was a heroin needle addict for years, even chewed on fentanyl patches daily. He eventually recovered, got the vivitrol shot, ate 4 fake xanax pills and died. He was the last person i ever expected as a drug user to overdose and die. He survived a LOT of fucked up nights. He had a wise and rugged personality despite his drug use. Ill add that he also had no intention of relapsing, he was prescribed xanax and just needed extra. So be careful man. If you get off, the relapse is what gets almost all of us addicts.

What do you mean he died from fake xanax? Sugar pill or something stronger than Xanax?

 

[G_Chem]

What do you mean he died from fake xanax? Sugar pill or something stronger than Xanax?

There are tons of people dropping dead from fake Xanax presses that contain fentanyl. I’ve known a few people to go like that. Same with percocets. (It used to mainly just be M30’s now it’s every press you could imagine.)

-GC

 

[ĐmantuNJofra]

I'm tapering but with the help of pregabalin, well there are days when I need to be myself so I'm waiting for 2 weeks break to jump, I'm now on 0,5 or 1mg daily or every two days but intranasal with saline solution spray, so it's possible that this ROA is 40% in comparison to 10-30 sublingual, but I feel it every day for couple hours and then I'm normal without withdrawal, I will help or try to jump with clonidine and pregabalin when I finish my project in month or two.
So it can be helpful maybe to you.
This is because of my teeth and Subutex is large and never melted right as Suboxone with that orange taste I tried it and as being said above 4mg I only get side-effects.
I'm on buprenorphine because of bupe and tramadol I never saw hydro or oxy(maybe).
As for sublocade I have that also in mind and I red from someone here that it work great monthly.
Yeah and buprenorphine worked as antidep better well I was on couple off them with last Venlafaxine which made me zombie flat and withdrawal was bad but manageable.
Yeah now they even make in blisters Xanax or Xalol, or Bensedine which some were tested positive on fentanyl. So watch out for benzos if you can stay out of them please, they are torture to get off.
Also heard good things about Vivitrol or naltrexone for opioid receptor baseline but as Hoagie said double edged-sword.

 

[plumbus-nine]

Pregabalin is a good tapering aid, it helped me greatly with tapering down my morphine. But the best withdrawal/tapering aid are dissociatives (NMDA receptor antagonists) like memantine, the research chemicals, e.g. deschloroketamine (DCK, a variant of ketamie which lasts 4 or so times longer) or, with reservation*, dextromethorphan. These drugs modulate mu-opioid receptors to mitigate tolerance and thus withdrawal. Tolerance directly correlates to withdrawal, the less you have, the better. I kicked bupe 4mg/d with DCK, no withdrawal to speak of, and later morphine 120mg/d with memantine, again no withdrawal. So you could taper down to 3-4mg/d with the aid of pregabalin and then use a dissociative to kick the remaining. Best is probably to do a cross taper, increasing the dose of the dissociative of choice while decreasing the bupe dose. This should also take care of post-acute withdrawal a bit.

* DXM is a strong norepinephrine-serotonin reuptake inhibitor and one doesn't want more NE during withdrawal. DXM also induces a trip/bodyload at the dosages required, this can be good (as in distracting) or bad, depending on you. I read both successful and failed attempts using DXM.

 

[BosanacX]

I'm tapering but with the help of pregabalin, well there are days when I need to be myself so I'm waiting for 2 weeks break to jump, I'm now on 0,5 or 1mg daily or every two days but intranasal with saline solution spray, so it's possible that this ROA is 40% in comparison to 10-30 sublingual, but I feel it every day for couple hours and then I'm normal without withdrawal, I will help or try to jump with clonidine and pregabalin when I finish my project in month or two.
So it can be helpful maybe to you.
This is because of my teeth and Subutex is large and never melted right as Suboxone with that orange taste I tried it and as being said above 4mg I only get side-effects.
I'm on buprenorphine because of bupe and tramadol I never saw hydro or oxy(maybe).
As for sublocade I have that also in mind and I red from someone here that it work great monthly.
Yeah and buprenorphine worked as antidep better well I was on couple off them with last Venlafaxine which made me zombie flat and withdrawal was bad but manageable.
Yeah now they even make in blisters Xanax or Xalol, or Bensedine which some were tested positive on fentanyl. So watch out for benzos if you can stay out of them please, they are torture to get off.
Also heard good things about Vivitrol or naltrexone for opioid receptor baseline but as Hoagie said double edged-sword.

I would use pregabalin too but in the past I abused gabapentin and let me tell you, DON"T EVER OVER DO IT. I was taking massive doses. I think it fried my brain I was like a zombie for a year. So that's why I can't use pregabalin. I might try clonidine though.
Yes bupe is likely helping my depression and that scares me. Or it is possibly causing it even though I had depression before. Some people take low doses permanently to treat dep. but due to my stomach and bile duct damage I can't afford to stay long-term on it because it may cause more damage. II am also tapering effexor because it doesn't help.
When it comes to benzos I reached tolerance long ago so it doesn't have effect on me even though Im dependent on it. Im weaning off slowly but I dont notice any difference whether I take high or low dose. Some people use niacin flush to get off of drugs like it helped me for dexedrine but bupe is harder.
One of the main reason I haven't quit sub before is akathisia if you heard of it. I had it for a while and it's unbearable so bupe has helped a lot.

Anywhoo I guess Ill continue taper for now and see how it goes. I might try MAOI called parnate because it is a good depression medication but has its own risks.

 

[BosanacX]

Pregabalin is a good tapering aid, it helped me greatly with tapering down my morphine. But the best withdrawal/tapering aid are dissociatives (NMDA receptor antagonists) like memantine, the research chemicals, e.g. deschloroketamine (DCK, a variant of ketamie which lasts 4 or so times longer) or, with reservation*, dextromethorphan. These drugs modulate mu-opioid receptors to mitigate tolerance and thus withdrawal. Tolerance directly correlates to withdrawal, the less you have, the better. I kicked bupe 4mg/d with DCK, no withdrawal to speak of, and later morphine 120mg/d with memantine, again no withdrawal. So you could taper down to 3-4mg/d with the aid of pregabalin and then use a dissociative to kick the remaining. Best is probably to do a cross taper, increasing the dose of the dissociative of choice while decreasing the bupe dose. This should also take care of post-acute withdrawal a bit.

* DXM is a strong norepinephrine-serotonin reuptake inhibitor and one doesn't want more NE during withdrawal. DXM also induces a trip/bodyload at the dosages required, this can be good (as in distracting) or bad, depending on you. I read both successful and failed attempts using DXM.

I am afraid to use pregabalin because I abused gabapentin 4 years ago and it almost destroyed me.

I googles a bit about memantine and it sounds scary.

Besides depression my other severe symptom is severe inner restlessness or akathisia and that's hell. Unlike normal inner restlessness which is horrible itself, akathisia effects the brain too and mental capabilities.

DXM is just opioid over the counter? I can't get high off opioids and benzos any more. I am just dependent

 

[FlyFree247365]

Hey there bud. Suboxone patient here.


Having been on and off suboxone several several times, I can tell you a large portion of where your difficulties are coming from is the placebo effect. If you have been on suboxone for any amount of time 4mg or higher, you have saturated all of your opioid receptors..so literally ever receptor has suboxone binded to it. I can almost guarantee that you will find no difference in effects taking 4mg than you will taking 8, 16, 32..you are literally just increasing side effects at that point, and that may be where your problems are.


Start taking 2mg or less, you will slowly open those receptors back up. Also, are you spitting your dose out after it sits in your mouth? Or do you snort it? The naloxone will fuck your stomach up badly. I used to get deathly ill some days the first year i was on it, even if i was taking the same 8-16mg a day as scheduled. It was too much.

Also, have you considered ketamine therapy? Right now it is only FDA approved to treat treatment resistant depression, but studies show huge promise for opioid addiction, as NMDA antagonists are known for desensitizing opioid receptors, making them sensitive again. The goal you want to aim for is to get on the vivitrol shot my man. That resets your receptors to factory defaults, before you ever took an opioid in your life. But its a double edged sword and thats how you have to view it. It can bring you back to life, but you will be tempted to get high again and because your receptors are fresh your risk of overdosing is HUGE. An 8mg suboxone would have you so trashed you would think youre overdosing..30mg or more of methadone could easily kill you. Let me know if you have any other questions dawg. Stay strong

Hey BUD Nopeee bad info subs don’t EVER FILL ALLL YOUR OPIATE RECEPTORS BUPRENORPHINE IS A PARTIAL OPIOID key word partial lmao it only hits some of them no matter how long you take it or how much now Methadone hits all receptors because its a full opioid saame as oxycodone , herion , morphine as examples… hey You learned something new today my guy thats always a plus I love to learn new things especially when It’s something I thought was a certain way and found out it’s different but didn’t mean no harm or to be rude litterally just wanted to point that out for you stay safe hope your doing good

 

[axe battler]

Don't go cold turkey. Drop your doses verrrrry slowly and jump at 0.1 or even lower if possible. Get some pregabalin for when you cease the bupe but only take it for 1 week.

 

[ĐmantuNJofra]

I am afraid to use pregabalin because I abused gabapentin 4 years ago and it almost destroyed me.

I googles a bit about memantine and it sounds scary.

Besides depression my other severe symptom is severe inner restlessness or akathisia and that's hell. Unlike normal inner restlessness which is horrible itself, akathisia effects the brain too and mental capabilities.

DXM is just opioid over the counter? I can't get high off opioids and benzos any more. I am just dependent

Well I can relate to akathisia as the worst symptom in my withdrawal journeys...and while I heard and felt pregabalin dependance on myself, for me in doses 450mg works well pregabs is the only one I'm consistent with and it helps RLS from buprenorphine withdrawal and tapering.
I heard about memantine good stuff but the only disos i tried is ketamine and that was years ago but it was one of the best and strangest month in my life.
But I think some of us are disociatives in nature....
To akathisia truly the only med that helped me stop alprazolam and lorazepam is pregabalin.
My psych told me when I asked "does it makes sense to taper with gabapentin, she said if pregabalin worked then no or just taper the pregabalin when you are ready!
Venlafaxine is also something I went CT from 2 years of 225mg-300mg and It was bad but RLS from benzos and buprenorphine is the nightmare that only pregabalin helped.
with that in mind I'm positive that there are great barbs, opioids and drugs like GHB but that is no solution!
Also I'm on pregabs almost 4 years and If I may ask, What or how gabapentin almost destroyed you?

 

[chicken hoagie]

Hey BUD Nopeee bad info subs don’t EVER FILL ALLL YOUR OPIATE RECEPTORS BUPRENORPHINE IS A PARTIAL OPIOID key word partial lmao it only hits some of them no matter how long you take it or how much now Methadone hits all receptors because its a full opioid saame as oxycodone , herion , morphine as examples… hey You learned something new today my guy thats always a plus I love to learn new things especially when It’s something I thought was a certain way and found out it’s different but didn’t mean no harm or to be rude litterally just wanted to point that out for you stay safe hope your doing good

Tell me you dont study pharmacology without telling me...oh, and...sir, your ego is getting in my face..can you..idk, go sit somewhere further away?


So, let's put our egos in their seats please, and have a real educational lesson on how neuropharmacology works.


Partial agonists/full agonists/antagonists..

It all means 'something' right? But, what are the differences? Well, let me PROPERLY explain.


A partial agonist binds the same way as a full agonist/antagonist does. Where the difference is, is wherein a partial agonist will only cause a 'positive' signalling response to the next neuron to a certain extent, before the physiological response does not increase any more.

A full agonist, on the flipside, has no ceiling effect and you may increase your dose to achieve the same effects almost indefinitely.


Regardless, they both attach to the same receptor, and cause a 'positive' signal response.

HOWEVER, (and this is where you need to pay attention) there is something in pharmacology that is called an ec50 and ecMAX. There are also Ki binding values that gives value to substances based on their binding AFFINITY. What this means is, because suboxone has such a high binding affinity for opioid receptors, it likes to fill in every single opioid receptor thats available to it. This makes it effective at mitigating withdrawals in extremely low doses, regardless of what drug you are withdrawing from. It will only get you so high (up to 32mg at once, or 4mg over time), but this is when suboxone fulfills its Ki binding affinity to its fullest.

If you still cant understand how you're wrong, then...I guess you just like to be right

 

[chicken hoagie]

To further elaborate for you, methadone IS indeed a full agonist. But it does NOT fi in every opioid receptor that is available to it. It causes a 'full' physiological response at mu-opioid receptors indeed, but it has a lower binding affinity than buprenorphine/naloxone does. Suboxone will kick methadone right out of its protein pockets and put you straight into withdrawal if that is what you are dependant on and try to switch right to...

But once the suboxone has taken over and time has passed, withdrawals disappear pretty fast despite the physiological response being 'half' of what methadone provides (relative to what dose you were maintaining!)

 

[ĐmantuNJofra]

But once the suboxone has taken over and time has passed, withdrawals disappear pretty fast despite the physiological response being 'half' of what methadone provides (relative to what dose you were maintaining!)

I see you know what you are talking about, sorry just wanted to ask about that last sentence? You meant on prec. withdrawals taking methadone on top of suboxone while taking it long term? not withdrawals from buprenorphine in general?
While you are here: Can I ask you what's your thought on jumping from buprenorphine from 0,5mg-1mg? I tried and I think that sick-leave or just a vacation of full-month couldn't cut it? I'm a little stuck with it( cause I was only on tams in hospital after surgery) but I think what was a little mistake in getting me off gapapentinoids like GHB, Phenibut-I was in anhedonia till buprenorphine got me out with it's antidepressant effect at the time.

I'm now first time trying or will be in couple days cause I ordered some Kratom will try with that?

 

[ovo1024]

Tell me you dont study pharmacology without telling me...oh, and...sir, your ego is getting in my face..can you..idk, go sit somewhere further away?


So, let's put our egos in their seats please, and have a real educational lesson on how neuropharmacology works.


Partial agonists/full agonists/antagonists..

It all means 'something' right? But, what are the differences? Well, let me PROPERLY explain.


A partial agonist binds the same way as a full agonist/antagonist does. Where the difference is, is wherein a partial agonist will only cause a 'positive' signalling response to the next neuron to a certain extent, before the physiological response does not increase any more.

A full agonist, on the flipside, has no ceiling effect and you may increase your dose to achieve the same effects almost indefinitely.


Regardless, they both attach to the same receptor, and cause a 'positive' signal response.

HOWEVER, (and this is where you need to pay attention) there is something in pharmacology that is called an ec50 and ecMAX. There are also Ki binding values that gives value to substances based on their binding AFFINITY. What this means is, because suboxone has such a high binding affinity for opioid receptors, it likes to fill in every single opioid receptor thats available to it. This makes it effective at mitigating withdrawals in extremely low doses, regardless of what drug you are withdrawing from. It will only get you so high (up to 32mg at once, or 4mg over time), but this is when suboxone fulfills its Ki binding affinity to its fullest.

If you still cant understand how you're wrong, then...I guess you just like to be right

Awesome reply bro. It's nice to see someone else who knows there pharmacology like I do. I have a question tho, maybe you can help me with.. So in the past when withdrawaling off Heroin, I had pretty good success using Suboxone. But recently while trying to get off a decent sized Fent habit (smoking 10-12 blues a day) I initially tried to use Suboxone and it just didn't work... But methadone did. And I know that Fentnyal is stronger then Heroin, and all though Suboxone is a partial agonist. But since it has such a high binding affinity, how come I wasn't very effective? But methadone was? Was it because Methadone all though having a lower binding affinity, does making it a full agonist be the reason it worked better? Thank you in advance for your reply, if you do see this!

 

[chicken hoagie]

Awesome reply bro. It's nice to see someone else who knows there pharmacology like I do. I have a question tho, maybe you can help me with.. So in the past when withdrawaling off Heroin, I had pretty good success using Suboxone. But recently while trying to get off a decent sized Fent habit (smoking 10-12 blues a day) I initially tried to use Suboxone and it just didn't work... But methadone did. And I know that Fentnyal is stronger then Heroin, and all though Suboxone is a partial agonist. But since it has such a high binding affinity, how come I wasn't very effective? But methadone was? Was it because Methadone all though having a lower binding affinity, does making it a full agonist be the reason it worked better? Thank you in advance for your reply, if you do see this!

Pharmacology is such an amazing tool to have when using drugs; as an addict. It has most definitely kept me alive all of these years, and likely has saved many people also in the process ..i can at least hope I have.

In regards to your question -- Methadone is most likely working because at a high enough dosage, enough opioid receptors are filled while providing a full agonist response just the same as fentanyl does.

Also, it does help that methadone and fentanyl are both piperidine opioids, making them chemically similar. Buprenorphine is an opiATE, so still an opioid, but slightly different peripheral properties. Buprenorphine will quell your withdrawals over some time, rather quickly, but a high enough dose of methadone will definitely almost Always work.

 

[chicken hoagie]

I see you know what you are talking about, sorry just wanted to ask about that last sentence? You meant on prec. withdrawals taking methadone on top of suboxone while taking it long term? not withdrawals from buprenorphine in general?
While you are here: Can I ask you what's your thought on jumping from buprenorphine from 0,5mg-1mg? I tried and I think that sick-leave or just a vacation of full-month couldn't cut it? I'm a little stuck with it( cause I was only on tams in hospital after surgery) but I think what was a little mistake in getting me off gapapentinoids like GHB, Phenibut-I was in anhedonia till buprenorphine got me out with it's antidepressant effect at the time.

I'm now first time trying or will be in couple days cause I ordered some Kratom will try with that?

Jumping from 0.5mg to 1mg? Any reason you are increasing your dose? It wont cause any problems, but dont increase if you are just wanting to get a buzz. Not worth it

 

[No_more_evry_monday]

Im planing on quiting bupe soon , is seruquel safe to use? When i tryed it few times it blocked my toughts and made me feel dumb but any type of tought blocker seems perfect for sub/any type of wd