I have a problem with Feminism

[jpgrdnr]

Feminism is a very broad topic....somewhat similar to stating..."I am a philosopher." Well...what kind of philosopher are you?

Most people directly assume that liberal feminism = Feminism. This isn't correct.

It isn't all about castrating males either.

And most feminists don't get along either as a group. So in terms of collectively grouping people together under a banner heading "Feminist" doesn't work all that well.

I too have problems with Feminist theory. I think largely some of it is reductionist, and to some a bit exclusionary (which flies in the face of historical feminism). If you have a penis you don't get to join the club. I think there is more at stake than simply gender roles, inequality, whatever. And I don't think gender or sex is the root cause of everything.

I don't deny its benefits. But with something that tries to be a political movement, an elitist academic dialogue, and some sort of personal vindication for one's misfortune (as opposed to individual action) at the same time, it needs to get its framework in order.

I think anthropology provides a differing account of womyn's roles in past cultures anyways that counteract a lot of feminist theory (nature vs. nuture debate). I think Feminism should focus more at dealing with the now.

 

[yougene]

I don't know where you got your ideas about people who come out of women's studies programs but the stereotype you've outlined is most certainly not true from my experience. Most feminists (in the university setting) I've conversed with agree that both men and women contribute to the hierarchical, patriarchal, heteronormative society that is constantly impressed on our ways of thinking/living.

I'm glad you had a positive experience with what I consider healthy feminism. Alot of the university feminists I've come across were of the Marxist sort. Nothing against Marxism but it is one of the first models to use the concept of an oppressor. Not exactly a frame where I could objectively discuss my views on gender roles.

This shift, for example, is being played out in that the university I just graduated from is changing "Women's Studies" to "Women and Gender Studies". I'm guessing eventually the "women" part will be phased out entirely.

That's funny you say that. I came in here wanting to post about how they should change "women studies" to "gender role studies." Make it a club everyone.

 

[yougene]

What do you feminists think of masculists? I'm new to it and don't know much about differing schools of thought but I really like this guy Warren Farrell.

Warren Farrell (born 1943) is an American masculist author.

Farrell holds an M.A. and a Ph.D. in Political Science (UCLA; New York University (NYU)). He has taught at the School of Medicine at the University of California, San Diego, and at Georgetown University, Rutgers, Brooklyn College, and American University.

With the publication of The Myth of Male Power, Farrell became one of the first masculists. The term is difficult to precisely define, but in his case masculism is a form of celebrating men as no less than women, and rejecting any sexism displayed against men by women. Since the early 1970s, he has been a champion of feminism, serving on the board of the New York chapter of the National Organization for Women (NOW). Within a few years, he was asked to leave NOW as his views diverged from those generally held in the organization; most specifically, he was critical of what he saw as female exclusiveness and disregard for men's issues. His early books The Liberated Man and Why Men Are the Way They Are were more in the vein of a type of men's liberation–an approach to men's issues similar to that of feminism to women's issues. These texts were not critical of feminism.

Farrell's critics declare him to be sexist and have an anti-woman attitude (or misogynistic).[citation needed] However, despite his being broadly attacked by many latter-day feminists including Susan Faludi. In answering his critics, Farrell argues that his approach is essentially of equality and humanism.

His approach to gender issues has come to be the cornerstone of masculism. His ideology calls for gender equivalence and, unlike some other masculists, a reduction in traditional gender roles. He has made a critical examination of the power imbalance between the sexes, claiming that in some cases it favors women: "The women's movement had done a wonderful job of freeing women from sex roles, but no one did the same for men".

 

[Rogue Robot]

That's funny you say that. I came in here wanting to post about how they should change "women studies" to "gender role studies." Make it a club everyone.

I wish my university would. I don't forsee it happening for a while as our minor program is relatively new (3-4 years, I think). It would be nice if universities and colleges would catch on to this. I've taken classes called "Women & Health", and we discussed disabilities and health problems of men, women, transgendered, and so on.

 

[AmorRoark]

^ That's awesome that you discussed a variety of health situations faced based on differing identity factors. We have both a Men's Health and a Women's Health course at DePaul University. We're also finally getting classes that deal specifically with trans issues and queer issues. I took a class called 'Queer Cinema' and it was absolutely fantastic.

 

[Kul69]

I am living in a very left wing environment at the moment.

I'm living right next to an all women's college where my girlfriend goes and it's taught me to hate "feminism." What the word means and how someone is using it completely depends on who you're talking to.

I can't even describe to you the amount of pure hatred that exists on this campus for men. Not all the women obviously but a large portion. Going on campus as a man feels like you're walking in a ghetto and at any moment someone might jump you and steal your shoes or something.

This is like an almost Ivy League type of school as well. I love to fuck with these people though...

I have a reputation around campus. I don't even know what my reputation is but I know that everyone there hates me for some reason. I "introduced" myself to the "core lesbians" on campus by asking, "How can you go to a women's only college while claiming to be a feminist when in the past women forced colleges to allow women where they only allowed men before?"

Sometimes I find it funny, sometimes I find it sad, and sometimes I find it scary.

These women come from very rich families and are being setup to rule the world (think Hillary Clinton) and a lot of them absolutely hate men and have been taught to think that it's men vs women in this world and they better be more aggressive and willing to take it farther than any man would.

These are the kinds of "feminists" I imagine you're referring to.

 

[Rogue Robot]

^ That's awesome that you discussed a variety of health situations faced based on differing identity factors. We have both a Men's Health and a Women's Health course at DePaul University. We're also finally getting classes that deal specifically with trans issues and queer issues. I took a class called 'Queer Cinema' and it was absolutely fantastic.

That sounds really interesting! Our program is slowly going somewhere, and although we have an extensive list of classes to choose from, many of them are no longer (if ever, I think they were made up) being offered, such as feminism and film. Hell, yes I would like to take a 3 credit hour class watching films directed toward feminism and feminist directors/actors/writers, but I haven't ONCE seen it actually offered since I declared my minor 2 years ago.

 

[AmorRoark]

I always find it a shame when people primarily have the experience outlined above. There is a lot of work being done however to combat such types of feminist thought and indoctrination. For example BUST magazine regularly has a "Men we Love" issue where they highlight positive contributions men have had to empower women and/or make strides for a more egalitarian society.

I was lucky in that the core friends I had in the department were pretty likeminded and we consistantly questioned what the professors were saying. I think a lot of what some of the professors were teaching is a tad dated and thus bringing in a more youthful perspective sometimes took that 'hardcore-man-hater' leaning off the discussions a bit. I'm sure it's difficult to adjust to modern realities when all your life you've been working (thanklessly) for a more equal playing field. It's understandable how easy it is to fall into the perspective Kul and others have witnessed.

 

[Jamshyd]

Feminism is liek, sooo 1970's. Get with the times! Queer Theory is what's in right now!

(Just joking, in case my tone was not sarcastic enough).

I think the op has some big misconceptions of what feminism is all about, and I completely agree with Alasdair.

Mysandronist "feminism" is simply hate, not feminism.

So yeah, people here are making better contributions than I have made in this post, so I'll shut up now.

 

[Middleway]

Exactly! You can spot them a mile away before they even open their mouths. They have this perpetually pissed off look about them and their faces are all sucked in like they have just taken a big bite out of a lemon.
I am gay and they talk about fucking oppression? But where I fall short in their eyes is that even though I am gay, I am quite masculine as opposed to the wimpy little beaten puppydogs of guys that follow them around.
I have had them direct comments at me out of the blue without me even knowing them like 'Woman shouldnt be disgusted at their period, its only because of fucking mens oppression that we are'
Or maybe its because its a bodily waste product like piss, shit, snot, etc, did they think of that?
And apparently it is not ok to call a woman who insults you a bitch as it is a gender specific insult. 'Hmmm, like when they called me an arsehole, a gender specific insult for men I would believe.

 

[AmorRoark]

yougene: I haven't read very much about masculinists but I reckon a lot of feminists would argue that masculinists is the type of society we already are. They'd probably point to how much male sports are celebrated and how the male experience (via movies, tv, ect) is routinely more focused on than that of the female.

That said I do think there is room within the scope of gendered studies to make sure that women aren't essentially copying the negative habits that they see in a largely male-dominated world. I also think it's healthy for men to celebrate being men. They should be able to do this without worrying about looking like 'anti-feminists'. Just as women shouldn't be scorned by men for celebrating being a woman. Another facet of masculinism that I find value in is the need to make sure women aren't being sexist against men. Historically, a lot of organizations weed out male applicants because
1. they're male thus already have a million other avenues provided for them so they shouldn't be given an opportunity or
2. they couldn't possibly be real feminists as they don't know what it's like to be a female or
3. they couldn't possible be real feminists because all men suck and want to keep women below them deep down
none of which are fair.
I think (hope) we're moving away from all that though.

 

[lunanueva]

I guess it depends on what you mean by feminist. People going into women studies usually do come out with the idea that men are the oppressors of women and view them as such. But men are just as much cogs of society as women are. Men have had their fair share of shitty roles to play in service of society and family.


It seems like most women in the west have interiorised facets of feminism and they have no ill will towards men. In that way I definately agree with you.

I graduated with a degree in Women's Studies from an esteemed university and did NOT come out with the idea that men are the oppressors of women. My education was based in the history of women in culture and society, around the world, and a general liberal arts education with an emphasis on gender. So I would take a literature class, but it would be based around female authors and thus discussing the social roles, female independence, and sexuality. I've never sat in a class where the professor bashed men. Usually it was ignorant young females who bashed men and then were kindly asked to back their argument by the professor. They usually saw the professors point pretty quickly!!!

 

[yougene]

yougene: I haven't read very much about masculinists but I reckon a lot of feminists would argue that masculinists is the type of society we already are. They'd probably point to how much male sports are celebrated and how the male experience (via movies, tv, ect) is routinely more focused on than that of the female.

So we don't get all semantical I want to post this from wikipedia.

Masculism (or Masculinism) has two contrasting meanings. When used by self-identified masculists, the term refers to social theories, political movements, and moral philosophies primarily based on the experiences of men. Masculism, when used by masculists (or masculinists), provides a general critique of social relations; many of its active proponents also seek to analyze gender inequality and promote men's rights, interests, and issues.

In an older, usually critical, sense used in feminist thought, sociology, anthropology, psychology, masculinism refers to a belief in the superiority of men or the masculine.[1] Traditional academic usage tends to use the form "masculinism" whereas the newer movements focused on men's rights tend to use the form "masculism." However, this distinction in usage of the two word forms is only approximate, and both forms are used in both senses.

I'm assuming when you say society is masculinist you are referring to the male-centric nature of the public sphere. I was referring to masculist as a field of gender study in relation to males.

I think Farrell's version of Masculism would say yes the public sphere has historically been male centric. But the social differentiation of man to the public sphere and woman to the private sphere was not carried out as an act of oppression but as an act of necessity. Even so Farrell argues that traditionally only certain male experiences and values are celebrated. Society gives value to those men that make themselves disposable at its whim. Honor, strength, bravery, tradition, wealth these are all values that give social value to those men that usually sacrifice themselves in some way. Whether it be through dieing at war, getting black-lung in a coal mine, selling your life to some corporation, etc... But in terms of female values is this really freedom? Is the man free to be in touch with his emotions? Is a man free to seek out a socially fulfilling lifestyle instead of a monetarily fulfilling one? Is he free to stay home and take care of the kids while the wife works? Well sure technically he is, but it's just as much of an uphill battle for a man escaping these gender roles as it is for a woman. The difference is woman have 50 years worth of institutions and research to transcend their gender-roles and men do not.

That said I do think there is room within the scope of gendered studies to make sure that women aren't essentially copying the negative habits that they see in a largely male-dominated world.

That is a tricky one. There are always going to be people that can't go that far beyond their own identity male or female. Once you start forming institutions they take on a life on their own and you'll find all sorts of people using them. The example that comes to mind is the reactionary "feminists" they had on the news saying they'll vote for McCain before they vote for Obama.
Ofcourse for every example like this you could probably point out ten from the male side.

 

[yougene]

I graduated with a degree in Women's Studies from an esteemed university and did NOT come out with the idea that men are the oppressors of women. My education was based in the history of women in culture and society, around the world, and a general liberal arts education with an emphasis on gender. So I would take a literature class, but it would be based around female authors and thus discussing the social roles, female independence, and sexuality. I've never sat in a class where the professor bashed men. Usually it was ignorant young females who bashed men and then were kindly asked to back their argument by the professor. They usually saw the professors point pretty quickly!!!

That's awesome! I'm not speaking from first hand experience like some of you here but my understanding is that Feminism is very much in a transition period( isn't everything always? ). The sort of me vs. you mentality was very popular at some point some decades ago but has been leveling off. Anyone else with first hand experience on the matter?

 

[zigzag| dta]

QFT!
Equal responsibilities! (Do women have to sign up for military service as do men? Placed in the same dangerous positions after they decide that they'd like to 'volunteer' for service?)

there are reason that women dont have to sign up for the service in the same manner that men do.

there are reason that women are placed in combat situations

it all has to do with the productivity of the armed forces

 

[lunanueva]

y

That said I do think there is room within the scope of gendered studies to make sure that women aren't essentially copying the negative habits that they see in a largely male-dominated world.

This is essential. It's not about making women more like men, or vice versa. It's about finding a space for women within culture and society that allows freedom of choice, action, and being.

 

[AmorRoark]

^ Agreed. It also involves breaking down the very notion 'what makes a woman' and 'what makes a man' which ties into your mention of freedom of choice, action and being.

 

[lunanueva]

^Were you a women's studies major? You have wonderfully articulated my beliefs on Feminism in this thread. One smart cookie!

 

[AmorRoark]

I was a minor but I wish I had double majored with it. I agree with everything you've said in this thread as well! Great minds think alike, eh? Where did you go to undergrad?

 

[Rogue Robot]

you learn new things everyday here.