I have a problem with Feminism

[Middleway]

I am living in a very left wing envirenment at the moment. I am being exposed to alot of women who identify as feminists. I have discussed feminism at length with a very left wing male friend of mine and I just think it is bullshit. From my understanding, and I have tried really hard to understand, Feminism is the theory that men and women are exactly alike and that socialization is what accounts for the difference in the sexs.
I call bullshit on that on account of a couple of reasons.

One, Men being aggressive and getting into fights at the pub etc, socialisation to be masculine dickheads? Maybe, or maybe it has something to do with Testosterone, a steroid hormone. What happens when bodybuilders start boosting up their testosterone, I dunno, things like Roid rage. Give a woman the same hormones and you will see similar aggressive behaviour. Thats not socialization.

Two - The case of David Reimer http://www.slate.com/id/2101678/

I just think it flys in the face of science and invalidates both masculinity and femininity as valid gender roles. It appears to advocate that we should all be androginous otherwise we have been 'manipulated' by society.
It seems to me ridiculus that even in just the past 100,000 years of evolution that the different daily tasks of living for the diferent sexs, ie hunting or cooking/gathering hasnt had an effect on our respective biologys yet I have been abused by militant feminist Nazis for suggesting that woman and men are equal but different. Nothing more, nothing less.

Am I missing something? Is there something I dont get? Have I got the concept behind feminism wrong? If anyone can shed light on this for me and answer my above converns I would really honestly like to understand it better because I am not game to discuss it with feminists because when I have they just get all pissed off and abusive.
Thanks

 

[yougene]

"From my understanding, and I have tried really hard to understand, Feminism is the theory that men and women are exactly alike and that socialization is what accounts for the difference in the sexs."

That isn't what feminism about. Feminism is the study of the female gender in relation to society. Some schools of thought say that women and men are exactly the same. Others recognize a difference in essence and mode of being. With alot of middle ground in between.

 

[neonads]

When people are emotional, they don't listen, internalise, or communicate back what you say to them. They mix their emotions with what you say and draw the wrong conclusions, often hyperpolarising their original POV. Men have been doing this for millenia, now the women have the opportunity to do the same. Calm them down first, get them talking about themselves wrt feminism, they have to be totally relaxed and feel safe before you can try to put your own ideas forth. There are definite body cues that show you when someone is relaxed, or when they are receptive to your input. Act before those cues and you will only frighten them.

Think of yourself as if you're breaking in a horse. No longer can we rely on the patriarchal system to provide subservient women for us, we've got to work for our relationships now.

Happy hunting.

 

[Horton-Scorton]

Anyone who says all sex differences are due to socialization has not been acquainted with Mr. Darwin.

 

[alasdairm]

^ you can define anything as anything but that doesn't really help.

i'm sure most people would agree on a simple definition of feminism being the social and economic equality of the sexes.

Middleway, given this definition, do you think it's bullshit? if so, why?

alasdair

 

[namelesss]

i'm sure most people would agree on a simple definition of feminism being the social and economic equality of the sexes.

QFT!
Right on the money!
Equal pay for equal work!
Equal opportunities!
Equal responsibilities! (Do women have to sign up for military service as do men? Placed in the same dangerous positions after they decide that they'd like to 'volunteer' for service?)

It's simple as that...

 

[AmorRoark]

Thanks ali for taking the words out of my mouth.

 

[haribo1]

It's true what they say about women, though....

It's an irregular plural

 

[Lysis]

I am grateful for feminism in that I could never be a housewife - I have 0 Ms Suzie Homemaker skills. LOL

I enjoy chivalry though. I enjoy a man treating me like a lady in a dating sort of relationship.

In the workplace, I like to be treated as an equal. I hate hate hate being treated as though I'm an idiot. I'm a computer programmer and I come across it allllll the time. It's very common in the IT industry to be treated as dumber than your male peers.

I don't understand how this can't be separated. I don't see men as penis morons in the workplace. I don't think that if I flash a boob in the office that the men will just become idiots and bow to my every whim. (ok, maybe that would happen, I don't know lol). I just think there is a time and a place to be a "man" and the workplace isn't it.

I don't consider myself a feminist at all, but I do demand respect in that I might be physically weaker than most of my male counterparts, but I'm in no way dumber than they are. Feel free to open a door for me, but fuck you if you think I can't make a PC hummm better than you.

 

[alicat72]

a little something to think about....

 

[Damien]

Girls need to learn to post images. . .

 

[alicat72]

"I also get the impression that women expect all the nice clean white collar jobs"

beamers- seriously? i know just as many women who have blue collar jobs as ones who have white collar jobs.....that does not mean that there are as many women as there are men iron workers, but there are plenty of women firefighters, road workers, painters, ect...

you are implying here that all women care about when it comes to work is how much money they make and that they won't get dirty at work, or break a nail....god forbid....

 

[Lysis]

chivalry is sexist....but you like it......you women are so confusing.

Eh, I don't think it's sexist. I'm not asking to open my own doors, I'm asking to be treated like a lady at night.

 

[alicat72]

^it's no where near equal employment in those jobs you listed is the point.

not sure i understand your point....you mean that because a man CHOOSES a dangerous job, that women should be more appreciative? or that women should choose dangerous jobs?

men and women have different talents/ abilities.....some men are more sensitive than some women....some women are physically stronger than some men....it's all shades of gray and we all have the right to create the options in our lives...that means that whether a woman chooses to work a dangerous job or if a man choses to be a waitor, then that is their choice....who cares what anybody else thinks.....we all have the right to choose our own paths...

the only problem i have with some feminist is that they claim to hate men.....not sure what the specific term is, but it is the equivalent of misogyny....not cool at all....but, i'm sure they validate their belief somehow.....

 

[alicat72]

I'm happy to leave it that then.

at what? the statement about the man haters? i suppose that's what you were looking for, eh?

what's more important is the observations i made previous to that statement....i would guess that 95% of women who consider themselves feminist do not hate men, they just want the same opportunities and pay rates!

 

[neonads]

lol @ beamers.

Nice hole you've dug yourself into there mate! :D

 

[socko]

the only problem i have with some feminist is that they claim to hate men.....not sure what the specific term is, but it is the equivalent of misogyny....not cool at all....but, i'm sure they validate their belief somehow.....

It's called misandrony. I think these man-haters were the kind of militant feminists that that OP is complaining about.
Here's an example of extreme radical feminism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie_Solanas. Read her SCUM Manifesto: http://www.scribd.com/doc/988728/Solanas-Valerie-SCUM-Manifesto

 

[footscrazy]

They don't realise that equality means there are some really shitty jobs out there that men do.

I don't think the aim is equality in the sense that there are 50% women and 50% men in every single job, the point is that there should be no gender discrimination in gaining a position. That being said, I don't think it's discrimination to accept that there are some jobs that men simply do better, and vice versa.

 

[yougene]

at what? the statement about the man haters? i suppose that's what you were looking for, eh?

what's more important is the observations i made previous to that statement....i would guess that 95% of women who consider themselves feminist do not hate men, they just want the same opportunities and pay rates!

I guess it depends on what you mean by feminist. People going into women studies usually do come out with the idea that men are the oppressors of women and view them as such. But men are just as much cogs of society as women are. Men have had their fair share of shitty roles to play in service of society and family.


It seems like most women in the west have interiorised facets of feminism and they have no ill will towards men. In that way I definately agree with you.

 

[AmorRoark]

I guess it depends on what you mean by feminist. People going into women studies usually do come out with the idea that men are the oppressors of women and view them as such. But men are just as much cogs of society as women are. Men have had their fair share of shitty roles to play in service of society and family.


It seems like most women in the west have interiorised facets of feminism and they have no ill will towards men. In that way I definately agree with you.

I don't know where you got your ideas about people who come out of women's studies programs but the stereotype you've outlined is most certainly not true from my experience. Most feminists (in the university setting) I've conversed with agree that both men and women contribute to the hierarchical, patriarchal, heteronormative society that is constantly impressed on our ways of thinking/living.

This shift, for example, is being played out in that the university I just graduated from is changing "Women's Studies" to "Women and Gender Studies". I'm guessing eventually the "women" part will be phased out entirely.