How to treat an OD ? Need you opinions/tips

[IXTOC-1]

Hey eveybody the goal of this thread is to describe (not forced to be a very scientist threa)

1Q : First i have a question about all benzodiazepines drugs (or touching the gaba similarly) in case of dangerous tachychardie or body shaking (to earn minutes, crush your benzo, give him the maximum benzo ina little water with sugar until the secourist arrive) After a conséquent number of articles read of OD treatment in hospital they ALWAYS give benzo (in IV and with other materials)

So don't hesitate to down with benzo your friend if he's OD (i all spreak in case of speed/MD/Cathinones rc stimulants !)

Peace, don't hesitate too correct me if i'm wrong

 

[Papaverium]

I would administrate a benzo for anyone freaking out on Psychedelics or Stimulants, but if it seems to be a life-threatening OD, then I would get them medical attention immediately.

There is also an OD Resource sticky under way that I pulled this helpful information from.

~Verri

 

[sekio]

If your friend is having a seizure, don't attempt to give medications by mouth. You can cause them to choke. Instead focus on keeping him or her safe and preventing them from hurting themselves.

It is always best to avoid getting into the kind of situations where you would need to take care of someone having a seizure though. Do your research on what drugs you're taking, test them, weigh them, don't trust dealers, and take them in a safe setting with some planning before you go party.

 

[Papaverium]

If your friend is having a seizure, don't attempt to give medications by mouth. You can cause them to choke. Instead focus on keeping him or her safe and preventing them from hurting themselves.

It is always best to avoid getting into the kind of situations where you would need to take care of someone having a seizure though. Do your research on what drugs you're taking, test them, weigh them, don't trust dealers, and take them in a safe setting with some planning before you go party.

Truth ^

The best way to treat an OD is to prevent it from happening at all in the first place as much as you possibly can to you power.
Research is the best medicine, it can save you before you need actual medicine!

~Verri

 

[:DNA]

If your friend is having a seizure, don't attempt to give medications by mouth. You can cause them to choke. Instead focus on keeping him or her safe and preventing them from hurting themselves.

It is always best to avoid getting into the kind of situations where you would need to take care of someone having a seizure though. Do your research on what drugs you're taking, test them, weigh them, don't trust dealers, and take them in a safe setting with some planning before you go party.

What about squirting a dose of PG etizolam in their mouths (via oral syringe), would that work as safe alternative to trying to administer a pill?

 

[serotonin2A]

What about squirting a dose of PG etizolam in their mouths (via oral syringe), would that work as safe alternative to trying to administer a pill?

NO! Get them to a hospital immediately. It takes too long for oral benzos to work, and it will make it more difficult for the doctors to treat the person. Etizolam that you bought from a website is not an appropriate medication, and you are not a physician.

 

[atara]

Do not attempt to treat an unexpected adverse drug reaction unless you have a medical license. Call emergency services immediately.

If you just want to end a psychedelic experience, benzodiazepines are the SOC. On stimulants a too-low dose of benzodiazepines may cause someone to become disinhibited and unpredictable.

 

[mmmbeer]

I agree with the above. It comes to being a responsible person and doing what you might not want to do. And thats call 911.

 

[:DNA]

NO! Get them to a hospital immediately. It takes too long for oral benzos to work, and it will make it more difficult for the doctors to treat the person. Etizolam that you bought from a website is not an appropriate medication, and you are not a physician.

I appreciate the advice and information shared in your post but in terms of the tone I'm detecting, I'm not sure how I feel about being stereotyped as a person who wouldn't automatically defer to an actual physician/emergency services just because he happens to have some curiousity about whether or not one of the substances he has nearby could be of possible use/benefit -- not because I believe my "internet drugs" or treatment abilities are an appropriate substitute for those provided by an actual doctor. If you go back and read my post more closely, you'll see that I was just trying to get clarification on a very specific part of sekio's comment, which seemed (unintentionally it loosk like) to make the available options out to be to either attempt to administer a benzo pill yourself, which is a bad idea due to potential choking hazards or otherwise wait it out, try to keep the person safe, leave it to the professionals, etc.

Of course the appropriate protocol in response to an actual seizure is to just immediately call emergency services. This is not new knowledge to me, so I'd appreciate not being admonished and "put in my place" for asking a simple question that could easily have been interpreted a bit more charitably than you did. No disrespect but you don't know me. For all you know I could be studying to be a physician. The fact that I happen to have etizolam bought from a website shouldn't color your perceptions of me as much as it seems to be have. Just my opinion.

 

[IXTOC-1]

Of course, i totally agree with the best solution said previously --> Emergency call or hospital, but sometime they came a long time before reach the hill man, so in this case, if he have OD from classical MDMA/speed/2C-B (or other making him to have too much adrenaline/noradrenaline/serotonin in his body) I think gave him a benzo (crush a little dose to little dose) can already begin to heal him, in hospital report (you can search , in this case they quasi always treat with benzo IV)

In this type of OD, the principal neurotransmetter inducing problems is the adrenaline and noradrenaline , regulated by the [COLOR=#]sympathetic nervous system[/COLOR] who is overstimulated by for exemple too much speed, in this case , i know that bromazepam slow down the PARA[COLOR=#]sympathetic nervous system[/COLOR] who will result in a less vasoconstriction, less health beat etc !

Cautious : Some benzo a possibly not appropriate cause they can interact differently and Bromazepam is functionnly for stimulant OD in general case

The question who make me dubitous, is that a sur stimulated [COLOR=#]sympathetic nerf coming down abruptly can have problems with this sudden changement ? Without answer, it's would be better to administratrice benzo slower (adapted to the OD of course) while waiting emergency ! [/COLOR]

 

[mmmbeer]

I think i would worry about the legal ramifications of trying to administer aid to someone. That's just where I stand. I would do all I can as long as it's not administrating some narcotic treatment that could result in me somehow getting rapped up in that persons misfortune. I'd hate to have police or the courts try to say I contributed to the death of someone by administrating drugs that I thought would help. Then again I don't know how I would react to someone dying. I think I would do everything I could to help them.

 

[IXTOC-1]

Yes, you know, it exist some sientifc research that show it's benefit(plenty of benzo) for a stim OD for example !
It's illegal but if you know what you do, it can save the ppl that's the more important

 

[serotonin2A]

I appreciate the advice and information shared in your post but in terms of the tone I'm detecting, I'm not sure how I feel about being stereotyped as a person who wouldn't automatically defer to an actual physician/emergency services just because he happens to have some curiousity about whether or not one of the substances he has nearby could be of possible use/benefit -- not because I believe my "internet drugs" or treatment abilities are an appropriate substitute for those provided by an actual doctor. If you go back and read my post more closely, you'll see that I was just trying to get clarification on a very specific part of sekio's comment, which seemed (unintentionally it loosk like) to make the available options out to be to either attempt to administer a benzo pill yourself, which is a bad idea due to potential choking hazards or otherwise wait it out, try to keep the person safe, leave it to the professionals, etc. Of course the appropriate protocol in response to an actual seizure is to just immediately call emergency services. This is not new knowledge to me, so I'd appreciate not being admonished and "put in my place" for asking a simple question that could easily have been interpreted a bit more charitably than you did. No disrespect but you don't know me. For all you know I could be studying to be a physician. The fact that I happen to have etizolam bought from a website shouldn't color your perceptions of me as much as it seems to be have. Just my opinion.

Seiko gave clear advice when he said "do not attempt to give medications by mouth." That means you shouldn't put anything in their mouth. I'm not trying to judge you or be condescending but the only thing I know about you is what you posted. The fact that you asked for clarification suggests that you are somewhat unsure about what to do in that situation. My response was emphatic but nothing I said was meant to admonish you.

What I wrote about etizolam obviously wasn't specifically directed towards you. How would I have any way of knowing that you purchased etizolam from a website?

 

[:DNA]

Seiko gave clear advice when he said "do not attempt to give medications by mouth." That means you shouldn't put anything in their mouth. I'm not trying to judge you or be condescending but the only thing I know about you is what you posted. The fact that you asked for clarification suggests that you are somewhat unsure about what to do in that situation. My response was emphatic but nothing I said was meant to admonish you.

What I wrote about etizolam obviously wasn't specifically directed towards you. How would I have any way of knowing that you purchased etizolam from a website?

I'd just like to preface this by saying that I have no desire to get into any sort of argument with you, even a little spat. I greatly respect your expertise and knowledge and have learned a lot from lurking and reading your posts. However, just to (hopefully) offer a clearer account of what was going on in my head when I made my first post, it was not a response directed at sekio saying "do not attempt to give medications by mouth", but a response to the part that immediately followed it: "because it can cause them to choke". This was the part that piqued my curiosity, because it gave me cause to wonder if that was the primary rationale he had in mind when making that point, as opposed to it being an incidental aspect of it. Put another way, I just wanted to know if sekio's advice was contingent on the choking hazard part, or whether it was supposed to be part of a more general "don't administer medication without a license and proper training". For this reason, I found the experience of being emphatically reminded that I am not a physician to be a bit uncalled for as I was genuinely trying to do my best not to give off the pretense that I was or fancied myself to be one. While that etizolam comment may not have specifically been directed at me, that in combination with the "and you are not a physician" line sure felt a bit pointed to something that I was asking out of pure intellectual curiosity.

In any case, not a big deal at the end of the day, just a bit of a miscommunication it seems. I'm already over it, sorry for being all sensitive and shit. Cheers.

 

[sekio]

I just wanted to know if sekio's advice was contingent on the choking hazard part, or whether it was supposed to be part of a more general "don't administer medication without a license and proper training".

It's the former. It's a hazard to both you, and the seizing person. It's not a good idea to try to put something in a convulsing person's mouth - there's no guarantee they can swallow, and in their thrashing around you could poke them in the face, their jaws could clamp shut on your hand, etc.

(Disclaimer: I'm not a doctor)

 

[serotonin2A]

Yes, you know, it exist some sientifc research that show it's benefit(plenty of benzo) for a stim OD for example !
It's illegal but if you know what you do, it can save the ppl that's the more important

The reason I'm saying you shouldn't give people oral etizolam isn't because it is illegal. It is because administration of oral benzodiazepines is not a great strategy for treating seizures in a stimulant overdose, and could possibly even be detrimental. To control seizures you really need to give benzodiazepines iv. Oral etizolam takes too long to work (it takes at least 15-20 minutes for it to be fully effective) and there is no way to titrate the dose. Is the plan to give etizolam orally, wait 20-30 minutes to see what happens, and then repeat as necessary? That is not a good strategy for treating the seizures promptly.

If paramedics are on their way, another reason not to give etizolam is that it wouldn't really be all that helpful. Assuming that the ambulance arrives in a reasonable amount of time (15 min), the paramedics will assess the patient, check their vitals and blood glucose, stabilize their airway, place a central line, and then infuse lorazepam. It is entirely possible that all of that would happen before the etizolam starts working, so it will not have helped one bit. Of course, once it does start working, it may cause oversedation because the patient will also have been given a reasonably high dose of lorazepam.

 

[:DNA]

The reason I'm saying you shouldn't give people oral etizolam isn't because it is illegal. It is because administration of oral benzodiazepines is not a great strategy for treating seizures in a stimulant overdose, and could possibly even be detrimental. To control seizures you really need to give benzodiazepines iv. Oral etizolam takes too long to work (it takes at least 15-20 minutes for it to be fully effective) and there is no way to titrate the dose. Is the plan to give etizolam orally, wait 20-30 minutes to see what happens, and then repeat as necessary? That is not a good strategy for treating the seizures promptly.

If paramedics are on their way, another reason not to give etizolam is that it wouldn't really be all that helpful. Assuming that the ambulance arrives in a reasonable amount of time (15 min), the paramedics will assess the patient, check their vitals and blood glucose, stabilize their airway, place a central line, and then infuse lorazepam. It is entirely possible that all of that would happen before the etizolam starts working, so it will not have helped one bit. Of course, once it does start working, it may cause oversedation because the patient will also have been given a reasonably high dose of lorazepam.

For some reason I was under the impression that IV midazolam is the preferred benzo in the treatment of hallucinogen/stimulant overdose. Is there some property lorazepam has that renders it superior to midazolam for treating seizures? A faster onset time or something? Or are there other factors that come into play/or are they somewhat interchangeable?

 

[serotonin2A]

For some reason I was under the impression that IV midazolam is the preferred benzo in the treatment of hallucinogen/stimulant overdose. Is there some property lorazepam has that renders it superior to midazolam for treating seizures? A faster onset time or something? Or are there other factors that come into play/or are they somewhat interchangeable?

They are for the most part interchangeable although there are dosing and PK differences.