Harm Reduction How to reduce the neurotoxicity of the methamphetamine ?

[Thrax]

I read the meth can cause brain damage, causing cognition problem and much more.
It's possible to reduce that toxicity to the brain ?

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Moderation, moderation, moderation. Neurotoxicity directly correlates to the dose used, and duration of the session of use.

Also very important is to sleep every night. Do not binge.

Always stay hydrated and eat food.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

I read the meth can cause brain damage, causing cognition problem and much more.
It's possible to reduce that toxicity to the brain ?

I think the neurotoxicity thing is often a bit overstated. You gotta go HARD to incur long-term physiological damage as a result of methamphetamine usage, and even then if you abstain from use for a protracted period of time you can probably return to where you were before things went to shit with your brain, more or less. People who use at that level don’t like to quit for the length of time for their feel-good chemicals to return to baseline (which can take years depending on the severity of the habit)

 

[Snafu in the Void]

I think the neurotoxicity thing is often a bit overstated.

I came back to also say something similar.

When it comes to long term meth users who clearly have incurred some sort of brain damage, I think the majority of that is actually from chronic sleep deprivation and not the drug itself.

Chronic sleep deprivation is insanely damaging to the brain.

 

[Parabolan]

I believe staying awake for extended periods of time does the most damage.

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

I think there was this study that stated methamphetamine becomes neurotoxic only after doses of 30 mgs or something. Something like that, I don't really remember.

There is a kind of meme circulating that doses below 200 mg are neuroprotective, I don't mind to explain how it came, but that's bullshit.

In some research it was shown that low-dose methylphenidate might possibly be neuroprotective. Logic was, I guess, it does not initiate neuron signaling so high it causes neurons to kill themselves to protect body from cancer* (*further science is beyond my comprehensation). But causes tolerance so that other dopamine activation can not cause excitement in neurons so high, neurons would kill themselves to protect body from cancer*.

But I think it is important to remember that drugs can cause alterations in nervous system function that while could not be classified as neurotoxicity, might be things you don't anyway want. Science is incomplete and you should use some common sense in addition to reading studies.

If you want to use recreationally, do it few times a year and use measured doses of few hundred milligrams a day MAX!!!! (*2 not like I do recommend it, but that protocol I think makes successful life at least possible)

If you want use daily, keep it to few tens of milligrams a day, and have days off. *2

 

[Thrax]

Thanks for all your answers dears friends.

I have serious sleeping problems, so even without drug my brain is probably damaged.

 

[FindingSobriety]

A multivitamin along with a good dose of L-ascorbic acid (vitamin C), and a healthy diet can do wonders for the brain (and body). Also look into cardio, it too is good for the brain, if your heart can handle it.

 

[snmfmy]

I think there was this study that stated methamphetamine becomes neurotoxic only after doses of 30 mgs or something. Something like that, I don't really remember.

30 mg per day is the maximum acceptable dose for childhood or adult ADHD.

60 mg per day is the maximum acceptable dose for narcolepsy

We can say that based on evaluation of ADHD and narcolepsy patients, 30 mg per day and 60 mg per day likely do not cause neurotoxicity.

There was one study where stroke patients were given 10 milligram doses every other day for four doses or something like that. And saw beneficial effects. But that would be an effective dose of 5 mg a day so that doesn't really necessarily give us a maximum value for neuroprotective effects.

If we look at similar but not identical substances as in MDMA, we know for a fact that doses of approximately 1 mg per kilogram in humans causes the release of BDNF otherwise known as brain derived neurotrophic factor which is neuro protective.

You guys can look up the citation. I think maps phase 2 might have the data or just type in MDMA bndf.

So we can definitively say that a 1 mg per kilogram dose of MDMA is neuroprotective.

I think it's reasonable to assume That a daily dose of 30 mg of methamphetamine is likely neuroprotective however there is no data.

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

So we can definitively say that a 1 mg per kilogram dose of MDMA is neuroprotective

I doubt that because there is so much going on with molly. You cut a lot of stuff straight you probably should not.

 

[snmfmy]

I doubt that because there is so much going on with molly. You cut a lot of stuff straight you probably should not.

"These results demonstrate that the presence of MDMA prior to mTBI functions as a neuroprotective agent because high BDNF levels in the cortex were found to contribute to high and better cognitive performances. Although the BDNF level is not a major factor in the destructive mechanism after mTBI, it seems that it is connected to the protective pathways activated when MDMA is given before injury"

I believe that was 10 mg per kilogram with a mouse so that would be equivalent to ~1 mg per kilogram for a human taking allometric scaling into account.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Brain-derived-neurotrophic-factor-BDNF-cortex-levels-Significantly-high-levels-of-BDNF_fig3_264794977

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

ya might be it has neuroprotective qualities. But we should be cautious about implications of that. Because it is simultaneously neurotoxic too.

 

[Lysosomalstorage]

The dental damage from dry mouth and bruxism is the main irreversible threat of stimulant abuse, if you hate having enamel it's a pretty good speedrun in tooth decay. Probably not worth the neuroprotective qualities of low dose meth even if it makes you a CEO/CIA agent or whatever.

 

[FindingSobriety]

The dental damage from dry mouth and bruxism is the main irreversible threat of stimulant abuse, if you hate having enamel it's a pretty good speedrun in tooth decay. Probably not worth the neuroprotective qualities of low dose meth even if it makes you a new species of human or whatever.

If you follow good dental hygiene on a daily basis (brushing, flossing, mouth wash etc) and see your dentist regularly, you usually can avoid most of the dental problems, for the most part.

 

[snmfmy]

ya might be it has neuroprotective qualities. But we should be cautious about implications of that. Because it is simultaneously neurotoxic too.

Provide proof!

If you actually search the literature It all says "indicates" likely neurotoxicity.

They have no actual physical proof that MDMA at recreational doses causes any neurotoxic issues whatsoever.

What they have is a bunch of monkeys and rats injected IP or directly into the brain. Multiple doses at 10 to 20 mg per kilogram for multiple days in order to instigate neurotoxicity.

They say they extrapolate to humans but let's be honest they have no evidence.

If it was neurotoxic, the FDA would never have allowed phase two human trials for PTSD treatment.

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

So we can definitively say that a 1 mg per kilogram dose of MDMA is neuroprotective.

I think it's reasonable to assume That a daily dose of 30 mg of methamphetamine is likely neuroprotective however there is no data.

MDMA metabolizes into MDA, a proven neurotoxin. Otherwise, most people take 200mg+ MDMA, not 1mg/kg.

ya might be it has neuroprotective qualities.

In certain stroke patients and those with TBIs.

They have no actual physical proof that MDMA at recreational doses causes any neurotoxic issues whatsoever.

They say they extrapolate to humans but let's be honest they have no evidence.

If it was neurotoxic, the FDA would never have allowed phase two human trials for PTSD treatment.

Human fMRIs definitely reveal neurotoxicity in many users. This is common knowledge.

Things are different when it's pure, of an exact dose, without redosing, the patient is hydrated, they don't use other drugs at the same time, they're not wildly exercising, and they don't stay up for inordinate amounts of time.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

How is neurotoxicity shown on fMRI? Do we know that changes in blood oxygen usage or glucose usage directly correlate to neurotoxicity?

 

[snmfmy]

MDMA metabolizes into MDA, a proven neurotoxin. .

MDA is not a known neurotoxin at recreational doses.

I assume that you're referring to this study as your proof:

"Two weeks after systemic administration of MDA or MDMA (20 mg/kg, s.c., twice daily for 4 d), there is profound loss of serotonergic (5-HT) axons throughout the forebrain;"

Yes, you read it right. That is a total of 160 mg/kg for 4 days and not given orally subcutaneous injection was the route of administration

Even with allometric scaling based on rats, that still equates to a human dose of between two and three grams, and likely more because there's no accepted allometric scale for a biphasic elimination profile.

Ridiculous as in deserves to be ridiculed.

Methylenedioxyamphetamine (MDA) and methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) cause selective ablation of serotonergic axon terminals in forebrain: immunocytochemical evidence for neurotoxicity - PubMed

The psychotropic amphetamine derivatives 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine (MDA) and 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) have been used for recreational and therapeutic purposes in man. In rats, these drugs cause large reductions in brain levels of serotonin (5-HT). This study employs...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So the only truthful statement that you can make is

"At a dose of 160 mg/kg given subcutaneously in 8 divided doses over 4 days, damage to 5-HT neurons is evident in laboratory animals."

You don't actually expect anyone to lend Credence to allegations of MDA being a neurotoxin based on 160 mg/kilogram dose.

 

[snmfmy]

Human fMRIs definitely reveal neurotoxicity in many users. This is common knowledge.

False common knowledge based on telling it forward.

The only thing that the FMRIs show is a lower binding affinity and or lower density for SERT.

The same thing happens after long-term antidepressant use.

The science is not behind you!

I've been looking for the science for 25 years, and so far there is not one actual piece of evidence of neurotoxic damage to 5 HT axons or neurons from recreational doses of MDMA or MDA.

Direct evidence does not exist and if you assert that it does, you are incorrect.

 

[snmfmy]

How is neurotoxicity shown on fMRI? Do we know that changes in blood oxygen usage or glucose usage directly correlate to neurotoxicity?

No, they see lower binding affinity and lowered densities of SERT. They extrapolate that to neurotoxicity.

While conveniently ignoring that the same exact phenomena happens after long-term SSRI antidepressant treatment.

They're literally is no evidence to support claims of neurotoxicity of MDA or MDMA at recreational doses. It just doesn't exist.