How to handle relapses?

[Rogg If]

True, they're both opiates; I just didn't think, after almost a month clean, that it'd take just three days of using to get WDs, that is what I couldn't really figure out...

 

[Tommyboy]

Oh yea, definitely. Even if I were to go hard for 2 days I would experience some withdrawals, and at 3 days it's for sure. Once you've had a habit it becomes easier and easier to become dependent again.

 

[Rogg If]

Shit. I'm so fucking young. I just see friends of mine doing stuff from times to times and never suffering any sort of withdrawals, so I felt I could do the same, you know, in a fun way and not as an everyday thing. I have a friend who's been fucking around for years with brown, banging up for a few weeks and then just leaving it for a while and feeling no withdrawals, how the fuck is that even possible??? I wish I could do the same & just play with opiates & other stuff, it's so hard to imagine my whole life with NOTHING at all. Whatever I take I quickly become dependent on, alcohol, opiates, benzos, I've had small coke/crack/speed habits, the only I've never been hooked on is meth! Isn't it possible to just make a compromise where your drug use doesn't take over your day to day life, is it possible to do them in a "healthy way"? Also being a musician, being in a music scene doesn't help as there's really lots of drugs around - and I can't see myself doing anything else, nor do I want to.

 

[neversickanymore]

There are very few if any people tht can maintain that sort of use.. unfortunately it usually catches up with everyone and once it does it is good to make the realization that the use of opiates recreationally has come to an end and it is now something that needs to be left alone for good.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

Shit. I'm so fucking young. I just see friends of mine doing stuff from times to times and never suffering any sort of withdrawals, so I felt I could do the same, you know, in a fun way and not as an everyday thing. I have a friend who's been fucking around for years with brown, banging up for a few weeks and then just leaving it for a while and feeling no withdrawals, how the fuck is that even possible??? I wish I could do the same & just play with opiates & other stuff, it's so hard to imagine my whole life with NOTHING at all. Whatever I take I quickly become dependent on, alcohol, opiates, benzos, I've had small coke/crack/speed habits, the only I've never been hooked on is meth! Isn't it possible to just make a compromise where your drug use doesn't take over your day to day life, is it possible to do them in a "healthy way"? Also being a musician, being in a music scene doesn't help as there's really lots of drugs around - and I can't see myself doing anything else, nor do I want to.

Not for 99% of people, no.

I also know what you mean about being a musician too. I play shows around the East Village scene in Manhattan and almost everyone is using.. however this isn't the 60's 70's and 80's anymore.. being a "drug addict rockstar" really isn't cool anymore and the bands and musicians that actually make it aren't the ones getting loaded all the time.

 

[Rogg If]

Scagnattie, you're spot on. And for some reason I imagine that NY is probably even worse so than London. True that its not the big druggy party animals that make it - there's this shit Camden scene here with bands that are friends with Pete Doherty (dunno if you know him, more people know him for his heroin/crack use than for his music, he's a nice guy though), middle-class kids who feel they have to play at being bohemian smackheads and think being like that is gonna make them the next Libertines, copy him completely, and they're going nowhere. They forget is it's also about the music. I personally hate musicians posing as junkies; despite my own problems I like to come across as a healthy guy.
The "drug addict rockstar" thing is bullshit & definitely not cool, but I don't think it's the reason lots of musicians are users nowadays. Drugs are just there, not even as a trendy thing, simply there at every gig, every after-gig party, like, people are so used to having it around that it's become normal. I'm as guilty as everyone else for this, we all keep each other's bad habits going.

 

[Tommyboy]

Shit. I'm so fucking young. I just see friends of mine doing stuff from times to times and never suffering any sort of withdrawals, so I felt I could do the same, you know, in a fun way and not as an everyday thing. I have a friend who's been fucking around for years with brown, banging up for a few weeks and then just leaving it for a while and feeling no withdrawals, how the fuck is that even possible??? I wish I could do the same & just play with opiates & other stuff, it's so hard to imagine my whole life with NOTHING at all. Whatever I take I quickly become dependent on, alcohol, opiates, benzos, I've had small coke/crack/speed habits, the only I've never been hooked on is meth! Isn't it possible to just make a compromise where your drug use doesn't take over your day to day life, is it possible to do them in a "healthy way"? Also being a musician, being in a music scene doesn't help as there's really lots of drugs around - and I can't see myself doing anything else, nor do I want to.

It took me a while to get to the point of it only taking a few days of consecutive opiate abuse to experience withdrawals afterwards, but once it happens there's no going back. I think that the suboxone is what did it for you (any myself and many others) because it's in you 24/7 when you are on it so that's all your brain knows for the period of time you are on maintenance, so if you get off it and use for a few consecutive days later on your brain quickly reverts back to 'opiates in system = normal' mode so once you stop it has to transition back again causing withdrawals.

I think that the one accurate thing I read on the stupid subsux forum was their explanation on why maintenance drugs like suboxone have such bad withdrawals.

Why is sub so much harder to get off of ? And why is UROD and Naltrexone a waste of time with sub...
And why is using regular opioids to get off sub not such a bad idea.

Oh and "SAO" means Short Acting Opioid ..like pain pills/morphine

When you do regular opioids on a daily basis, there are peaks and lows in your high. Not always detectable but present. And if you sleep longer than 4 hours a night while using opioids, chances are when you wake up you are reaching for your next dose to fight off the cusp of wd's. To fight the lack of opioids, the brain will fire aminos/proteins to try to get you to feel normal again....until your next dose. These changes gives the brain a small but noticeable point of reference on how you are supposed to feel without opioids, and that is what the slight uncomfortable feeling or slight onset of wd's is, the brain trying to regulate. This is all due to the 4 hr 1/2 life of all SAO's. Your brain still has a tiny pathway to normalcy again and will eventually find its way back to normal in a week or two for most people.

Now take a drug like buprenorphine (Sub) or methadone, these drugs have ridiculously long 1/2 lives, 34+ hours. So not only is the dose you just took saturating the brain for the next 34 hours, but so is the doses you took for the past week. Basically you are getting a "steady high" and the brain has no way to create a point of reference on how you are supposed to feel without opioids. (almost never slight wd's, mental stuff perhaps, but actual wd's almost never) Not only does the brain lose its way back to normalcy so to speak, but the search for normalcy, the brain firing of signals to feel good again is almost non existent... no reason with drugs that are by design made to keep you high "all the time".. So not only does the brain have no point of reference as to what "normal" without opioids feels like, but sparking up the endocrine gland/pituitary to produce the signals/proteins needed to feel good again is fucking rusty with sub or methadone...with SAO's it fires everyday!!! [source]

So since it really hasn't been that long since you got off of suboxone your brain can easily switch back to relying on bupe for normal functioning. In my opinion the only way to use opiate/opioids after having a habit for a while and avoid withdrawals is to take a break of at least 2 weeks (preferable a month but I know the reality of things) and then use no more than once every 5 days (once again, preferable 10 days but I know how it is). So if I were to go back to using I would aim for 3x a month by using once every 10 days.

The shorter times on the frequency that I put can actually still cause mild withdrawals, which is why I listed the amount of time I would wait, and then the frequency at which I would use. I've read people on here saying that even when using once a week they would still feel some withdrawals on day 6. So if you are using every 5 days your body gets used to operating on that schedule and it needs an opiate every 5 days to feel normal otherwise you will feel off. Now taking a month off would probably allow you to use at that frequency without feeling withdrawals after stopping, or the day before your scheduled dose, so that's why you should take a nice long break before dipping your toes back in the water.

The other benefit of this is lowering your tolerance, which helps with a few things. If you are using once a week you will still have a pretty level tolerance that you probably won't get below. For me, it's probably 90mg of oxycodone that I'll never really get below. It's important to take that long break first so that your tolerance goes down a lot (*be sure to be cautious when first dosing after a break) which will help financially and with avoiding dependence. It pays to take longer off because that base amount you find yourself needing will become lower the longer you wait, although it probably won't get below a certain point.

If I took a 2 week break it would be down to like 120mg of oxycodone if taken once a week, but with a one month break I could get down to needing only 90mg. So with a lowered tolerance that means less of the drug in you which ultimately means less dependence on the drug. And at once every 10 days it will allow for your tolerance to get to basically the lowest it will be, and stay there. Using once a week might keep it level, but it's a crap shoot really and depends on the person.

Sorry to go a bit off topic, but wanted to show you how disciplined you would need to be if you wanted to be able to use again while avoiding physical dependence.

 

[angeleyes]

There are very few if any people tht can maintain that sort of use.. unfortunately it usually catches up with everyone and once it does it is good to make the realization that the use of opiates recreationally has come to an end and it is now something that needs to be left alone for good.

The other people that we know through are use of drugs, whether yet be good friends or acquaintances, I used to always think that "Oh surely I must be weak, why am I the only one that can't handle my scattered mind" the new days after events, later finding out that I'm not the only one that goes through hell, well, it didn't feel as lonely as before. I can't say I've had opiate withdrawals sorry, but try making good productive use of your time.

Go help kids or orphans or something, not meaning exaggeration here I'm meaning like MAKE ABSOLUTE GOLDEN USE of your time like WOW IM HELPING ORPHANS that is like the best feeling I've personally ever had. Now run out there and build a roof for some kids, go be a hero that's what helped me feel like a champion and keep busy.

 

[THECATINTHEHAT]

don't beat youself up about it and try to stay clean one day/hour/minute at a time

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

Scagnattie, you're spot on. And for some reason I imagine that NY is probably even worse so than London. True that its not the big druggy party animals that make it - there's this shit Camden scene here with bands that are friends with Pete Doherty (dunno if you know him, more people know him for his heroin/crack use than for his music, he's a nice guy though), middle-class kids who feel they have to play at being bohemian smackheads and think being like that is gonna make them the next Libertines, copy him completely, and they're going nowhere. They forget is it's also about the music. I personally hate musicians posing as junkies; despite my own problems I like to come across as a healthy guy.
The "drug addict rockstar" thing is bullshit & definitely not cool, but I don't think it's the reason lots of musicians are users nowadays. Drugs are just there, not even as a trendy thing, simply there at every gig, every after-gig party, like, people are so used to having it around that it's become normal. I'm as guilty as everyone else for this, we all keep each other's bad habits going.

Yeah it's everywhere in the music scene. However, if you look hard enough there are still groups of hard working musicians who aren't messed up with that shit or who got clean. That's more the groups I'm trying to associate with now. You need to find the people who use their music as the drugs, you know? The ones who realize that using only ruined their potential and drive, and finally got clean to really pursue the dream of making it as a musician.

I've done the whole "junkie musician" thing. It ended up costing me a record deal and a tour once the business people found out I was a dope fiend and I couldn't even hold it together long enough to record a little EP.

I'm using music now as a big motivator to get and stay clean and a big part of that is staying away from that horrible drug scene.