How to avoid hyperthermia on meth?

[Altered Perception]

Some of you may know me from my previous discussions (posted under the name Unlucky) as the guy who overdosed on ecstacy and meth and ended up being disabled with a neurological illness after the severe hyperthermia damaged my Autonomic Nervous System.

This near fatal overdose happened 15 years ago and i havent taken any stimulants since. The brain damage also messed up my body temperature and left me with daily fevers. But most frustratingly i am stuck with this dam chemical sensitivity to all psychoactive substances that stimulate or depress the autonomic nervous system.

After a 15 years of abstinence i am now considering a trial of stimulants for medical use to give me the boost to get me out of bed and get back some of my life as i have spent many years bedridden with crippling fatigue.

Unfortunately the chemical sensitivity i have been stuck with since the overdose now causes an immediate hyperthermia and messes up my vitals.

I have not been high in the last 15 years and any previous attempts with even the smallest dose had always resulted in an adverse reaction. Before i can even take the required dose to feel the effects of any psychoactive drug i end up with all the side effects.

So its going to be a difficult and long trial as i attempt to desensitize my body to stimulants before i can reap any benefits.

I no longer have any contacts since my disability and with vigorous search the only stimulant i was told avaliable is: ice

I have thought long and hard about the dangeours for someone in my current condition but i believe the benefits outweigh the risks.

So now that i have shared some of my complicated background i am hoping for suggestions specific to my situation. What easily acquired medications are out there to counteract the hyperthermia caused by meth?

Does everyone taking meth experience an increase in body temperature? Is the temperature increase dependant on the dose? I have read that the hyperthermia is a result of dopamine, seretone, noradrenalin and a few other theories.

Does this mean if i can get hold of a dopamine antagonist i can prevent further increase in my damaged thermoregulatory system?

 

[Stargazer]

Hey Altered, I am sorry that this has happened to you. I can imagine what you go through...I am disabled myself from attacks of blinding head pain. So I get what you mean about weighing things out for quality of life. Your question is one I can't answer. What drew me to your thread is that my husband becomes hypothermic from opiates. When he's stable, he's freezing. He has been taken to the ER numerous times...found, in the winter, at the busstop passed out on the ground. Hypothermia was the number one cause of him being in the ER. They put those heavy heated electric blankets on him, etc.

I can imagine after 15yrs, you have had it and want to feel some energy and get the hell out. Like you said, I'd continue to do research as you are doing. And take it slow, as you are doing. I understand all about adverse reactions and how maddening that is. Not only do I have a rare conditon to begin with, I'm med-resistant to all treatments for this condition or I can't tolerate the side effects of the meds. Uuugggh. I'm sorry I don't have an answer for you, but I just wanted to say hi , and say I'm sorry you have to go through this.

 

[Amphetafiendd]

Personally I experience a large increase in body temperature when using meth. The increase in temperature for myself is definitely effected by what dose I take and what kind of quality the product. I would recommend perhaps requesting to move this topic to "Neuroscience and Pharmacology Discussion". Those guys over their would be able to offer some good insight.

 

[Altered Perception]

SBfromPA,

Thanks for your well wishes and for sharing your story. Yea it is very frustrating dealing with a rare condition. My heart goes out to you and your husband and i wish you all the best.

 

[RTrain]

Benzodiazepines might help.

 

[Altered Perception]

Benzodiazepines might help.

Benzos also cause me to become overheated, esprcially facial flushing and fever due to its action as a depressant on my already damaged nervous system.

But thank you for your suggestion. I need a substance that is going to act directly on my brain chemistry such as dopamine, adrenalin to supress any temperature increase.

The increase in temperature for myself is definitely effected by what dose I take and what kind of quality the product.

Very useful information. Thank you. I am going to try starting with a very low dose

Moderators, as suggested by amphetafiendd please move topic to the appropriate section.

Some feedback would have been super helpful by now as the delay is holding me back from starting the trial until i can get some advice here.

Meanwhile i am continuing to research and have come across some potential info which i need help understanding...

"Concurrent treatment of mice with METH and pharmacological agents which protected partially or completely from METH-induced toxicity also prevented the hyperthermic response (i.e., dopamine receptor antagonists, fenfluramine, dizocilpine, alpha-methyl-p-tyrosine, phenytoin, aminooxyacetic acid and propranol). These findings are consistent with the hypothesis that the hyperthermia produced by METH contributes to its neuropathology. However, studies with reserpine, a compound which dramatically lowers core temperature, demonstrated that hyperthermia per se is not a requirement for METH-induced neurotoxicity. Although core temperature was elevated in reserpinized mice treated with METH as compared with reserpinized control mice, their temperatures remained significantly lower than in nonreserpinized control mice. However, the hypothermic state produced in the reserpinized mice did not provide protection from METH-induced toxicity. These data demonstrate that hyperthermia per se contributes to but is not solely responsible for the METH-induced neuropathology."

 

[blight12]

I have found body temp on meth to be difficult to measure during the experiencem without monitoring directly. I used to assume that im only beginning to overheat if i start sweating profusely but I have noticed a few times via external feedback that even when feeling very comfortable and not sweating at all, that I seem to have a near feverish terperature.

Not sure if there is a warn sign in terms of the experience to indicate when you need to be concerned or if it can become an issue without noticing any negative symptoms? The only time I have noticed a temp issue is when combining alcohol with meth to assist with bad Vaso C and it can quickly turn the mildly concerning prickly cold sensation into a worse burning hot heavy sweating situation.

 

[sekio]

Meth increases basal metabolic rate, it's just part of its activity... most things that will block the direct hyperthermic effects of amphetamines will also neccesarily block the "good parts". Especially taking a dopamine antagonist. The same effects that cause meth to sharpen your focus and attention also contribute to extra oxidative stress and higher body temperature.

Self-prescribing methamphetamine to fix a motivation problem is not a hole you want to dig. If you can't get your shit together without meth.... let's just say the number of people who decided to switch to self-prescribed ice and are functional, normal adults with productive lives are probably the minority. Chances are high you are going to end up totally burned out.

People have this problem with plain amphetamine (Adderall/Dexedrine) too, fuck, even with caffeine. Chemically there is very little you can do to counteract the elevated body temperature aside from stuff like wearing loose-fitting clothing, staying hydrated, etc, etc. Maybe taking Tylenol would help in the short term. And of course, keeping doses minimal (we're talking below 10mg a day) wil help as well.

Meanwhile i am continuing to research and have come across some potential info which i need help understanding...

You can feeds rats reserpine (which basically blows all the monoamine neurotransmitters out of the synapse resulting in a lethargic, depressed murine) and even though there's no body temperature elevation when you give them meth, there's still brain damage.

Realistically speaking... try coffee or tea, first. If you have autonomic nervous system trouble it is a stupid idea to take basically the most potent stimulant invented...

 

[Altered Perception]

Sekio, i apreciate your concern and advice but i am doing this as a last resort. Why else would i have avoided stimulants for 15 years. I wasnt even drinking coffee until 5 months ago when i got diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome in addition to my "autonomic dysfunction".

I started off with mild stimulants like coffee and tea but to no benefit. I am watching my life pass me while i lay in bed 24/7.
I havent been able to clean my room for over a year because of this disabling fatigue. It looks like a hoarders den here. I have made an appointment with a CFS doctor in the hope that perhaps they will try dex or ritalin but the appointment is still 2 months away.

I know its a stupid endeavour but its my last resort to try and help myself. Even if i can just use it to stay awake during the day, i would have at least fixed the hyper insomnia/ shift worker routine ive been stuck in.

Back to the discussion, the medications i quoted in the article above such as "dopamine receptor antagonists, fenfluramine, dizocilpine, alpha-methyl-p-tyrosine, phenytoin, aminooxyacetic acid and propranol" are any one of those likely to help prevent temperature increase

 

[ebola?]

Your body regulates its temperature within a tight window, and when an exogenous ligand modifies the central point of this regulation of its temperature, there's not much to be done to reduce it. You can do the obvious and avoid heavy exercise and exposure to heat, but this will have only a minor effect.
...
Also, this is a truly poor tactic to justify to yourself continued overuse of powerful stimulants.

ebola

 

[sekio]

Meth and other amphetamines is only a temporary band-aid for motivation problems. In the long run it will not do you any favours. If you think you are unmotivated now, try doing meth for a couple weeks, then stop.

I started off with mild stimulants like coffee and tea but to no benefit. I am watching my life pass me while i lay in bed 24/7.
I havent been able to clean my room for over a year because of this disabling fatigue. It looks like a hoarders den here.

Don't sit around and expect your problems to resolve themselves. You need to be actively involved in getting out of this, even with medication. Break the chain of inactivity rather than posting on the internet and doing drugs. Honestly, taking up meth is not going to fix anything. The simple fact is you need to force yourself to do some sort of rewarding work. That in itself is enough to 'get the ball rolling'.


Now, to answer your question...
Taking dopamine receptor antagonists, a humongously broad class of drugs, will generally negate or greatly downplay most of meth's "good" effects, because meth releases dopamine... and if it cant bind anywhere, it has basically no good effects. Also, dopamine receptor antagonists are in general pretty mean drugs, they can cause fatigue, sexual dysfunction, weight gain, etc.
Fenfluramine was the "Fen" part of Fen-Phen, and is responsible for the heart valve damage that it caused, so probably not a good idea.
Dizocilpine is MK-801, a powerful dissociative/hallucinogen active in the micrograms. I would like to see you try to take some with meth.
alpha-methyl-para-tyrosine blocks the synthesis of dopamine, norepinephrine, and adrenaline, thereby negating the effects of meth. And causing massive fatigue, fainting, blood pressure problems.
Aminooxyacetic acid is a compound that blocks GABA breakdown, and is an anticonvulsant. Maybe that would work, but it would cause sedation.
Propranolol is a beta blocker, it lowers your heart rate among other things. It might work, but it won't stop you from being a sweaty mess except in high doses.

I'll repeat, there's not much that can counteract the power of meth's hyperthermic action that won't also block the effects of the meth itself.

I know its a stupid endeavour but its my last resort to try and help myself. Even if i can just use it to stay awake during the day, i would have at least fixed the hyper insomnia/ shift worker routine ive been stuck in.

1. Diet
2. Sleep
3. Excercise

Those 3 will go a long, long, long way to making you feel better.

 

[Altered Perception]

Thank you to you both for trying to help.
Sekio, the detailed reply regarding each substance is much apreciated.

Ebola and Seiko, i understand it is difficult for you guys to make sense of how fatigue can be so debilitating enough to warrant heavy stimulants.

I wish i understood it myself but this "Chronic Fatigue Syndrome" has knocked me on my ass. Even getting up to use the toilet is a challange. I only bought one point of meth because i dpnt plan on using it any longet than i need to.

I only want to use it twice. First use is to get my sleep back into normal routine. To do that i need to stay awake during the day. I sleep 15 hours a day due to the exhaustion caused by CFS. And then at night i have insomnia. The meth may help keep me awake during day time.

Second time i use it will be for the major cleanup of my room. I have a years worth of accumulated piles of mess.

Once i get my sleep into shape i will leave the rest to be sorted the CFS doctors.

Seiko, i am done spending so many years stuck in my room because of my disability. I have made plans to fix my life through excercise and better sleep but to achieve that i need some type of help. Ive tried almost everything else before contemplating stimulants.

I now understand there is no quick fix to prevent the hyperthermia so now i am back to square one. Thank you guys for informing me that it is an unlikely endeavour.

 

[Altered Perception]

Ebola, i believe you have completely misunderstood me.

This is not some "tactic to justify to yourself continued overuse of powerful stimulants."

I know my post was long and boring to read but i did clarify that i experience an adverse effect with even small doses. This means that i can never get high without the liklehood of killing myself. But my intention is not to get high. All my concerns are in regards to the minimum dose that is capable of being effective.

Because of my chemical sensitivity my threshold has been reduced to the mimimal line where the drug begins to work. Anything beyond that is suicide for me.

I would be even more content with a non-psychoactive stimulant like modainfil rather than risking my health with amphetamines. But even for modainful i have to wait 2 months for my appoinment with the specialist.

The medical system is slow and pathetic here in Australia.

 

[sekio]

I only want to use it twice. First use is to get my sleep back into normal routine.

I'm sorry, how does that work? Meth is not going to flip a switch in your head that makes your life better, you will feel energeized for a while and then it wears off and you are right back where you started.

"I'm only going to use it twice"... famous last words!

 

[Altered Perception]

Tommorow is the day I trial a dose enough to give me a boost of energy. So I have a few last questions.

The three things I need to keep an eye out for are blood pressure, heart rate and temperature.

So lets talk medication. Apparently normal beta-blockers are dangerous with meth induced hypertension or tachycardia. But instead alpha-blockers are suggested in some of the discussions. However according to another article it contradicts this information again saying:

Beta-blockers (e.g. metoprolol) or combined alpha and beta adrenergic blocking agents (e.g. labetalol) should be avoided. They can cause an unopposed alpha-adrenergic mediated coronary vasoconstriction, causing the worsening of myocardial ischemia and hypertension.

A member on bluelight also suggests:

On paper, Clonidine (or any alpha-blocker) looks like it should be a good, discriminating candidate (leaving dopamine and seratonin untouched). However, repeated use has demonstrated something that I since discovered reading studies using Meth and Clonidine on mice, which is that when norepinephrine is suppressed by Clonidine, it has a toxic effect on dopamine pathways, and significantly reduces dopamine to *below* even natural levels.

http://bluelight.org/vb/archive/index.php/t-643328.html

But actual test results argue the opposite about Carvedilol which is a dual beta and alpha blocker :

Carvedilol inhibits the cardiostimulant and thermogenic effects of MDMA in humans -
Carvedilol significantly inhibited the MDMA-induced increases in blood pressure, heart rate and body temperature

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3448893/

Also other alpha blockers like phentolamine, Clonidine have also been suggested for use. But there is contradicting information about propranolol. Which only adds to my confusion

I then found articles claiming certain substances that are capable of reducing temperature / meth induced heyperthermia. Here are several of those drugs

Pre-treatment with reserpine indicated that the neuroprotective effect of D2R inactivation cannot be explained solely by its ability to prevent METH-induced hyperthermia: reserpine lowered body temperature in both genotypes, and potentiated METH toxicity in WT

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21303698/?i=2&from=/22115942/related

another article also states:

pretreatment with high doses of alpha-phenyl-N-tert-butyl nitrone (PBN) (4 injections of 180 or 240 mg/kg, i.p.) protected against METH-induced hyperthermia

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/10983851/?i=6&from=/22115942/related

Here is another one:

"an interleukin-1 receptor antagonist reduced maximal body temperature enough to lower the lethality rate"
A number of pharmacological agents, including some striatal dopamine (DA)
receptor and NMDA receptor antagonists, appear to protect
against METH-induced neurotoxicity by inhibiting METHinduced
hyperthermia.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/8138969/?i=2&from=/22289608/related

and another:

sigma receptor antagonism prevents methamphetamine induced hyperthermia

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21886562

The problem is I don't know how readily available these medications are. Except for "Anakinra (brand name Kineret)" an interleukin-1 receptor antagonist capable of reducing meth induced hyperthermia.

The drugs I have in my possession right now that maybe of some use are: Carvedilol, Propronolol, Periactin (cyproheptadine), Ginseng, Gingko biloba, Diazepam.

Based on the presented articles above, which of these should I take tommorow prior to dosing on meth?

I don't have any Clonodine though, is it worth getting?

 

[Altered Perception]

If anyone here can PLEASE read and answer the questions I posted above ^ I would be very grateful. Getting the right information can make all the difference for me. Thanks

 

[ebola?]

Honestly, if you're really only going to use meth twice, you don't need to worry about minorly modifying degree of neurotoxicity (let alone cardiotoxicity). My opinion is that if you need to take an compound attenuating adrenergic activity with a stimulant to moderate its cardiovascular effects, the dose of the stimulant is too high (or you are too sensitized to the adrenergic effects of stimulants and tolerant to the desired effects that you shouldn't continue with stimulants). While propanolol theoretically could induce dangerous unopposed alpha agonism (and thus according dangerous effects on BP), this is probably only dangerous at high stimulant doses. However, clonidine-like drugs are still the obvious better choice.
...
The dopaminergic compounds you point to reduce meth's neurotoxicity by counter-acting a wide spectrum of its effects (you'll find dopaminergic antagonism pretty 'nonselective' in terms of the array of effects produced). They're a dead end, except in actual research.
...
Really, I'm not sure what your goal is here. Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is, well, a chronic condition, so why would you want the symptoms treated for just several hours total (eg, by trying meth "twice")?

ebola

 

[Altered Perception]

Ive run into a bit of trouble during my trial and need help rather urgently, anyone online to help please?

 

[sekio]

Bluelight is not an urgent help forum, call a doctor if you are concerned.

 

[ebola?]

Really that you contact a physician is of paramount importance. While it's likely that your anxiety is causing increasing physiological alarm (in turn increasing anxiety, and so on), it's better to have medical services when in doubt. I'm closing this thread to ensure that further discussion doesn't distract you from contacting a physician.

ebola