Misc How safe is it to take small doses of l-dopa and 5htp daily?

[WeirdCrazyShortGuy]

I have been taking mucuna pruriens extract (which naturally contains l-dopa) for about a couple of years now to combat depression. I've calculated the amount of l-dopa to be 100 mg daily. I also take 100 mg of 5htp nightly to add to the anti-depressant combo. This combination has worked very well for me but is it harmful in the long run? So far I haven't had any bad effects (or none that I've noticed anyway).

 

[Folley]

From another thread...

I don't know what to believe anymore when it comes to 5-htp use. I used to use it a lot. All I was saying is that I'm shocked at some of the possible long term adverse effects that may arise from supplementing with 5-htp. I'm shocked because I googled "5-htp" ready to defend it and ended up reading about how it could possibly damage your heart (cardiac fibrosis), cause hypertension, eosinophilia-myalgia syndrome, acute serotonin syndrome and also how it apparently has been shown to cross the blood-brain barrier, the last of which made me do a double-take. I'll link you what I read below, but, at this time, like I said, I don't know what to believe.

I don't condone using any drugs. In fact, if you can live your life drug free, that would probably be best in terms of long term overall health. I believe that - given the proper circumstances - mdma can be neurotoxic, and mda moreso. Based on what I've read, Folley probably feels the same way.

About priorities - I'll be honest with you, my priorities in general are extremely messed up and they almost always have been.

Here's links to what I read:

http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/111/12/1517 - 5-HTP and Heart Valve Disease (1-2)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1850896/?tool=pmcentrez - 5-HTP and Heart Valve Disease (2-2)
http://mazdamx.hubpages.com/hub/The-Dangers-of-5-HTP - Hypertension and Serotonin Syndrome
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7699627 - An eosinophilia-myalgia syndrome related disorder associated with exposure to 5-HTP.
http://www.erowid.org/smarts/tryptophan/tryptophan_info1.shtml - 5-HTP crossing Blood-Brain Barrier (1-2)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18445233 - 5-HTP crossing Blood-Brain Barrier (2-2)

Don't take 5-HTP, it's not meant to be taken in by the body, and is actually toxic. Get some L-Tryptophan, it's naturally found in Turkey and other sources, and it metabolized by your body into 5-HTP... the problem with taking 5-HTP by itself is that it is hardly metabolized, and like 90% of it passes through your body, putting a stain on your liver.


I personally don't take any of those placebos/supplements, they are like modern day cure-alls...

 

[Swimmingdancer]

I disagree. I think 5-HTP is usually extremely safe in except when taken with certain prescription meds or in exceedingly high doses. My doctor, my naturopath, my psychiatrist and my shaman all recommend it and believe it to be very safe. Especially when compared to any prescription anti-depressant. I would suggest WeirdCrazyShortGuy do your own research and make your own conclusions.

It's ridiculous to say "Don't take 5-HTP, it's not meant to be taken in by the body, and is actually toxic" and base it on nothing. Stick to the facts represented in the studies. And just because something is a supplement and doesn't require a prescription does not make it a "placebo". Nobody claimed it cures everything.

By the way, those links that ro4eva posted do not actually support his/her claims, for example they do not say that 5-HTP crosses the BBB, they say that serotonin/5-HT does. What's wrong with that? Another study is about giving rats injection of serotonin, how does that prove anything about taking 5-HTP supplements?


As for L-DOPA, are you getting a prescription for it? I don't know much about it but it is generally considered relatively safe in humans, although some people do get side effects and there has been some controversy about more serious side effects in people with Parkinson's. I would do some research on it.

As for taking 5-HTP and L-DOPA together, it's generally not recommended, so you might want to talk to a doctor about it. The fear is basically that they might potentiate each other, resulting in serotonin syndrome, so if you are taking these two together you should start with very small doses. If you're already taking them together and you haven't noticed any side effects or symptoms of serotonin syndrome then it is fairly unlikely that it will occur with the same dosage in the future, unless you do/take something else that affects your neurotransmitters.

 

[ErgicMergic]

Isn't L-Dopa neurotoxic? I thought I remembered reading that somewhere...

L-Dopa is really only used for Parkinson's and Alzheimer's disease, I wouldn't use something that contains it regularly. Use L-Tyrosine instead, if raising Dopamine levels is your goal.

 

[NeuroPsyence]

My doctor, my naturopath, my psychiatrist and my shaman all recommend it and believe it to be very safe.

 

[Folley]

5-HTP is a very helpful drug, when it's in the right part of the brain. When you take L-Tryptophan, 5-HTP is made. But it is made the way your brain always does, instead of skipping a step like you do when you take in 5-HTP directly. It's more complete, and doesn't cause Serotonin Syndrome like 5-HTP can


You need vitamin B6 for it to work at all, and if you take too much it won't work...
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1126622

 

[Swimmingdancer]

Isn't L-Dopa neurotoxic? I thought I remembered reading that somewhere...

L-Dopa is really only used for Parkinson's and Alzheimer's disease, I wouldn't use something that contains it regularly. Use L-Tyrosine instead, if raising Dopamine levels is your goal.

Some researchers have reported increased cytotoxicity in rats and in cell cultures. I would suggest an alternative to L-DOPA as well.

LOL. FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU (jk) What? Are you laughing at the "shaman" part? I'm not basing my belief in the safety of 5-HTP solely on my doctor, naturopath, psychiatrist and shaman's opinions, but I figured it was worth mentioning because if ALL of them agree I think that counts for something. Coming from both Western medicine and alternative medicine, with not a dissenting opinion among them.

 

[Folley]

Here. This'll do it forsure.

The Warning claims that without a PDI most or all of the 5-HTP will be converted to serotonin in the bloodstream outside the brain; and since serotonin does not cross the blood-brain barrier, this would nullify any hoped-for brain benefit from 5-HTP. Yet successful studies (only some of many published) using 5-HTP without a PDI (1,2,4,6,11) clearly refute this contention. Furthermore, studies infusing tryptophan or 5-HTP directly into the bloodstream of human subjects have been performed, and these studies have not found any increase in blood serotonin caused by increased blood 5-HTP. Thus, one report states: Six healthy male subjects received … 5-hydroxy-L-tryptophan (5-HTP) … on two occasions in a randomized cross-over study. There were marked increases in urinary 5-HTP and 5-HT [serotonin] excretion after infusion of [5-HTP] … . This occurred without significant changes in blood 5-HT [serotonin] levels measured in platelet-rich plasma. (23) Another report using intravenous tryptophan infusion stated: … 5-hydroxy-Trp [5-HTP] rose rapidly and massively after Trp[tryptophan] infusions, at the 5 g dose more than … 20-fold[!] … and declined rapidly to about 5-fold baseline levels within 2 hours. Whole blood serotonin levels were almost unaffected by the Trp [tryptophan] infusions [in spite of the massive conversion of the tryptophan to 5-HTP in the blood]. (24) Thus, both clinical studies and blood serotonin measurements in response to dramatically increased blood 5-HTP levels fail to support the Warning claims that 5-HTP without PDI will only elevate blood serotonin and not brain serotonin levels.

http://www.vrp.com/stress/5-htp-safety

 

[Swimmingdancer]

5-HTP is a very helpful drug, when it's in the right part of the brain. When you take L-Tryptophan, 5-HTP is made. But it is made the way your brain always does, instead of skipping a step like you do when you take in 5-HTP directly. It's more complete, and doesn't cause Serotonin Syndrome like 5-HTP can

L-Tryptophan has been reported to cause serotonin syndrome when taken with other meds, just like 5-HTP.

 

[Folley]

The only L-Tryptophan I take is in turkey and fish, I've never gotten SS.


Taking these "supplements" to try and create more neurochemicals is a rather stupid idea IMO. We don't understand the way our brain functions, and that is a MUCH more complex task than simply taking a pill and getting more Serotonin. It doesn't work like that.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

Here. This'll do it forsure.

The Warning claims that without a PDI most or all of the 5-HTP will be converted to serotonin in the bloodstream outside the brain; and since serotonin does not cross the blood-brain barrier, this would nullify any hoped-for brain benefit from 5-HTP. Yet successful studies (only some of many published) using 5-HTP without a PDI (1,2,4,6,11) clearly refute this contention. Furthermore, studies infusing tryptophan or 5-HTP directly into the bloodstream of human subjects have been performed, and these studies have not found any increase in blood serotonin caused by increased blood 5-HTP. Thus, one report states: Six healthy male subjects received … 5-hydroxy-L-tryptophan (5-HTP) … on two occasions in a randomized cross-over study. There were marked increases in urinary 5-HTP and 5-HT [serotonin] excretion after infusion of [5-HTP] … . This occurred without significant changes in blood 5-HT [serotonin] levels measured in platelet-rich plasma. (23) Another report using intravenous tryptophan infusion stated: … 5-hydroxy-Trp [5-HTP] rose rapidly and massively after Trp[tryptophan] infusions, at the 5 g dose more than … 20-fold[!] … and declined rapidly to about 5-fold baseline levels within 2 hours. Whole blood serotonin levels were almost unaffected by the Trp [tryptophan] infusions [in spite of the massive conversion of the tryptophan to 5-HTP in the blood]. (24) Thus, both clinical studies and blood serotonin measurements in response to dramatically increased blood 5-HTP levels fail to support the Warning claims that 5-HTP without PDI will only elevate blood serotonin and not brain serotonin levels.

http://www.vrp.com/stress/5-htp-safety

That'll do what for sure? All that says is that 5-HTP crosses the blood brain barrier and makes serotonin in the brain - exactly what we want it to do. Those studies are refuting the claim that 5-HTP supplements don't work.

 

[Folley]

The Warning claims that without a PDI most or all of the 5-HTP will be converted to serotonin in the bloodstream outside the brain; and since serotonin does not cross the blood-brain barrier, this would nullify any hoped-for brain benefit from 5-HTP

Read closer.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

Read closer.

You read closer. The info YOU posted says the studies found that warning to be false.

 

[NeuroPsyence]

LOL. FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU (jk) What? Are you laughing at the "shaman" part?

It was the combination more than anything. With the *possible* exception of the doctor, I wouldn't place a whole lot of weight on any of their opinions. The only resources that I trust in evaluating the safety of drug are highly-technical, peer-reviewed, scientific studies. Preferably lots of them.

 

[Folley]

You read closer. The info YOU posted says the studies found that warning to be false.

All they say is that they have never seen anyone say they had side effects, and it's an article written by a Pharmaceutical Company.


Again, your brain is not as simple as taking 5-HTP and getting more serotonin.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

All they say is that they have never seen anyone say they had side effects, and it's an article written by a Pharmaceutical Company.


Again, your brain is not as simple as taking 5-HTP and getting more serotonin.

The info you posted:

The Warning claims that without a PDI most or all of the 5-HTP will be converted to serotonin in the bloodstream outside the brain; and since serotonin does not cross the blood-brain barrier, this would nullify any hoped-for brain benefit from 5-HTP. Yet successful studies (only some of many published) using 5-HTP without a PDI (1,2,4,6,11) clearly refute this contention. Furthermore, studies infusing tryptophan or 5-HTP directly into the bloodstream of human subjects have been performed, and these studies have not found any increase in blood serotonin caused by increased blood 5-HTP. Thus, one report states: Six healthy male subjects received … 5-hydroxy-L-tryptophan (5-HTP) … on two occasions in a randomized cross-over study. There were marked increases in urinary 5-HTP and 5-HT [serotonin] excretion after infusion of [5-HTP] … . This occurred without significant changes in blood 5-HT [serotonin] levels measured in platelet-rich plasma. (23) Another report using intravenous tryptophan infusion stated: … 5-hydroxy-Trp [5-HTP] rose rapidly and massively after Trp[tryptophan] infusions, at the 5 g dose more than … 20-fold[!] … and declined rapidly to about 5-fold baseline levels within 2 hours. Whole blood serotonin levels were almost unaffected by the Trp [tryptophan] infusions [in spite of the massive conversion of the tryptophan to 5-HTP in the blood]. (24) Thus, both clinical studies and blood serotonin measurements in response to dramatically increased blood 5-HTP levels fail to support the Warning claims that 5-HTP without PDI will only elevate blood serotonin and not brain serotonin levels.

Translation: There is a claim that when 5-HTP is taken by itself most of the 5-HTP will be converted to serotonin in the bloodstream before reaching the brain. Serotonin itself does not cross the blood-brain barrier, so if the claim were true that would mean there was no serotonin getting to the brain. However many studies using 5-HTP clearly prove this is not true. In addition, studies where tryptophan or 5-HTP were introduced into the bloodstream did not find any increase in blood serotonin caused by the 5-HTP. There were noticeable increases in serotonin in the urine after the 5-HTP had been taken. So, the studies disprove the claim that 5-HTP will only elevate blood serotonin and not brain serotonin levels.

Do you still not understand the info that you yourself posted?