How much APAP can I be assured will be removed with a CWE? Kinda unique scenario

[Anoymator]

I wanted to post this in a recent thread but thought it would derail it. So I'd rather ask here for my specific situation:

If you follow the instructions, what are the chances of fucking up the CWE? How much (e.g. a percentage) can I be assured to have removed?

I am asking because in my case I have to be extra careful due to a medication I am taking which would exacerbate greatly any damage to my liver and would very likely kill me in an overdose scanerio. I normally need about 180mgs of codeine to catch a mild high so I'd be looking at about 25x 8mgs/500mgs tablets, so about 12,500mgs of APAP. How much could I be assured that would be removed or that I would be taking in as residue from a properly done CWE?

For what is worth, I have never done a CWE, have only taken codeine a few times and would be taking the codeine only a few times to help with the tramadol withdrawal (otherwise I would not risk, the high from codeine is not that great to me).

I have to be extra careful with the APAP hence the question. Thank you.

 

[cloudyday]

I would also like to know because I am doing the same thing but my pills only have 325mg APAP each.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

Well we can't make an absolute guarantee, but I would guess if a CWE is performed properly then maybe at least 80% of the APAP should be removed. Note that the amount of water makes a difference though. It could easily be more than that, but if you are in a situation where your liver is super sensitive then I would not want to recommend that a CWE would definitely make it safe when you are dealing with that much APAP to start off. Exactly which process are you planning on using?

Do your tablets contain any other active ingredients aside from codeine and APAP, like caffeine or anything?

There is a detailed thread on CWEs here: Cold Water Extraction Mega Thread & FAQ

 

[painenduser]

FWIW, I have the same problem, I am actually being evaluated for a liver transplant right now, and this is one reason why I stay away from APAP like it were the devil however, the problem that you will run into here is not so much an issue with the CWE method and how much APAP it should remove the problem is more an issue of what if something goes wrong with the CWE... Everything that I have read, and while I have not tried CWE myself, my understanding basically backs up what Swimmingdancer said which is that it should eliminate at the least 80% if not more and I would expect more. The biggest worry that you have is what is something goes wrong with the CWE, are you willing to basically risk your life to do this? I am just trying to air on the side of caution here only because, I know the fear you must have with doing this to begin with. Now, my understanding is that you should be able to taste the APAP if it is in any sizable dosage if it's in what should be the Oxy you are left with. I have heard that it should taste very bitter and if it does you know you still have a sizable amount of APAP therefore stay away. The other thing I read somewhere while I can not confirm this is that the Oxy you extract should be clear as it's water soluble and the waste APAP should be cloudy. Again, I can not confirm that.

I would definitely suggest reading through the entire CWE Mega thread that dancer put in the post and just be really careful and if you have any doubts, don't take it. You have far more courage then me (some may say the opposite) because with my liver, I am too chicken shit to even try this for the very reason that I have already been in full hepatic failure once, and I do not ever want to be there again!

Best of luck and please post your results if you do try it and let us all know your full out come. The results you discuss would be very helpful to alot of people as there isn't much written about the results as much as there are the discussions of how to do it. GL

 

[Anoymator]

Well we can't make an absolute guarantee, but I would guess if a CWE is performed properly then maybe at least 80% of the APAP should be removed. Note that the amount of water makes a difference though. It could easily be more than that, but if you are in a situation where your liver is super sensitive then I would not want to recommend that a CWE would definitely make it safe when you are dealing with that much APAP to start off. Exactly which process are you planning on using?

Do your tablets contain any other active ingredients aside from codeine and APAP, like caffeine or anything?

There is a detailed thread on CWEs here: Cold Water Extraction Mega Thread & FAQ

Thanks. Only APAP. 80% sounds OK but I have never done a CWE, what are the chances of royally screwing it up and getting a good dose of APAP? The CWE seems straight forward but I have never done it and don't know what to expect. The tablets are pretty big by the way and the 30mg codeine-only tabs I had were something like 1/10 of the 8/500s I have.

FWIW, I have the same problem, I am actually being evaluated for a liver transplant right now, and this is one reason why I stay away from APAP like it were the devil however, the problem that you will run into here is not so much an issue with the CWE method and how much APAP it should remove the problem is more an issue of what if something goes wrong with the CWE... Everything that I have read, and while I have not tried CWE myself, my understanding basically backs up what Swimmingdancer said which is that it should eliminate at the least 80% if not more and I would expect more. The biggest worry that you have is what is something goes wrong with the CWE, are you willing to basically risk your life to do this? I am just trying to air on the side of caution here only because, I know the fear you must have with doing this to begin with. Now, my understanding is that you should be able to taste the APAP if it is in any sizable dosage if it's in what should be the Oxy you are left with. I have heard that it should taste very bitter and if it does you know you still have a sizable amount of APAP therefore stay away. The other thing I read somewhere while I can not confirm this is that the Oxy you extract should be clear as it's water soluble and the waste APAP should be cloudy. Again, I can not confirm that.

I would definitely suggest reading through the entire CWE Mega thread that dancer put in the post and just be really careful and if you have any doubts, don't take it. You have far more courage then me (some may say the opposite) because with my liver, I am too chicken shit to even try this for the very reason that I have already been in full hepatic failure once, and I do not ever want to be there again!

Best of luck and please post your results if you do try it and let us all know your full out come. The results you discuss would be very helpful to alot of people as there isn't much written about the results as much as there are the discussions of how to do it. GL

I would only be doing CWE because I have found codeine helps in the first 2 days of tramadol WD. Otherwise I would not risk it for the high alone but the first 2 days of tramadol are utter hell and codeine, along with other drugs, makes it less of a hell. Considering I'd be risking my life with anything above 4grams of APAP, I think I am going to pass on getting codeine from a CWE (cannot obtain more codeine-only pills).

 

[painenduser]

I would only be doing CWE because I have found codeine helps in the first 2 days of tramadol WD. Otherwise I would not risk it for the high alone but the first 2 days of tramadol are utter hell and codeine, along with other drugs, makes it less of a hell. Considering I'd be risking my life with anything above 4grams of APAP, I think I am going to pass on getting codeine from a CWE (cannot obtain more codeine-only pills).

What about a benzo like Ativan? I ask because I know that if you goto the local ER alot of time you just have to tell them hey I'm coming down off of (med of your choice) and Im having problems with the WD's from it. Would they hook you up? They do here with out trying to stick you in Detox. It's pretty easy to get them. I would say that would always be a safer option if your in this position, I would hate to see you risk your life over something like CWE. CWE is pretty straight forward and I wouldn't think it's that hard to do and the process should be pretty straight forward, but it just doesn't seem that the risk out weights the potential to get something from the local ER or Clinic. IDK, I know I wouldn't risk it personally, but that's only because I have never done it before. If I had successfully done CWE in the past and knew what to expect, then I would say sure go for it, but yeah with out having done it before, I wouldn't risk it personally. I think that your making a very smart decision on passing on the CWE at this point. Though for shit's and giggles I may just do it, and have someone else test my work lolol, j/k

Can I ask you if you have actually been diagnosed with liver disease? Or are you saying that based on your past history?

 

[Anoymator]

What about a benzo like Ativan? I ask because I know that if you goto the local ER alot of time you just have to tell them hey I'm coming down off of (med of your choice) and Im having problems with the WD's from it. Would they hook you up? They do here with out trying to stick you in Detox. It's pretty easy to get them. I would say that would always be a safer option if your in this position, I would hate to see you risk your life over something like CWE. CWE is pretty straight forward and I wouldn't think it's that hard to do and the process should be pretty straight forward, but it just doesn't seem that the risk out weights the potential to get something from the local ER or Clinic. IDK, I know I wouldn't risk it personally, but that's only because I have never done it before. If I had successfully done CWE in the past and knew what to expect, then I would say sure go for it, but yeah with out having done it before, I wouldn't risk it personally. I think that your making a very smart decision on passing on the CWE at this point. Though for shit's and giggles I may just do it, and have someone else test my work lolol, j/k

Can I ask you if you have actually been diagnosed with liver disease? Or are you saying that based on your past history?

Thanks, I already have plenty of benzos at hand. I don't want to go to a doctor for my addiction because that would go on my record and I will only be WDing from 350mgs-400mgs from a few months of use which is hellish but doable alone. I have enough benzos (clonazepam and alprazolam), pregabalin and more useful stuff. I am lacking an opiate though to help for the first 2 days.

I don't have liver disease, I am taking a medication for a legit medical problem that has my liver already working hard and messes my blood coagulation. Any insult to my liver could be fatal and I am actually given more tramadol so that I don't use APAP (I had a legitimate reason to get a painkiller for some weeks but continued lying about my pain problem to score more tramadol, which is my drug of choice).

 

[painenduser]

Gotcha, ok, yeah I can understand that. I'm glad to hear you don't actually have liver disease. Unlike me The Dr's tell me that I have End Stage liver disease and feel that I may need a transplant (which is why I wanted to post as I know the fear of taking anything that may tax my liver), however I have had many tests since then and my liver is actually showing perfect blood test results. While that doesn't mean much, thankfully, I have been in this state for a couple years now, and I have an appointment with my GI Dr this month to discuss whether or not they feel that my liver has actually partially regenerated itself which they didn't think I originally had any chance of. So fingers crossed!

 

[Anoymator]

Gotcha, ok, yeah I can understand that. I'm glad to hear you don't actually have liver disease. Unlike me The Dr's tell me that I have End Stage liver disease and feel that I may need a transplant (which is why I wanted to post as I know the fear of taking anything that may tax my liver), however I have had many tests since then and my liver is actually showing perfect blood test results. While that doesn't mean much, thankfully, I have been in this state for a couple years now, and I have an appointment with my GI Dr this month to discuss whether or not they feel that my liver has actually partially regenerated itself which they didn't think I originally had any chance of. So fingers crossed!

Hey man, sorry about your situation. My situation is fucked up too in that my health issue almost had me dying some months ago and my health future looks dark.

Anyway, the more info we can get for those who have to be specially cautious when it comes to APAP, the better. I know the best advice is to not risk it (which I fully agree) but then people, whether it is you or I or others, will still risk it, so we might as well get the most info we can on a CWE. In my situation, tramadol WD is bad enough to desire using an opiate for the first 1 or 2 days, which I found was of great use for attenuating the WD (codeine does it and I have used it successfully in previous WD scenarios). Unfortunately I cannot get more codeine-only tablets unless I break the law, which I would rather not do.

 

[painenduser]

Hey man, sorry about your situation. My situation is fucked up too in that my health issue almost had me dying some months ago and my health future looks dark.

Anyway, the more info we can get for those who have to be specially cautious when it comes to APAP, the better. I know the best advice is to not risk it (which I fully agree) but then people, whether it is you or I or others, will still risk it, so we might as well get the most info we can on a CWE. In my situation, tramadol WD is bad enough to desire using an opiate for the first 1 or 2 days, which I found was of great use for attenuating the WD (codeine does it and I have used it successfully in previous WD scenarios). Unfortunately I cannot get more codeine-only tablets unless I break the law, which I would rather not do.

Thanks Anoymator and I completely agree, however, having said that I am not about to risk my liver anymore, I have done that enough The CWE Mega Thread is a great place to go for all things CWE, but is lacking some Q & A on the final out come. I also put together a document on Tylenol; How much is to much because when I first came here that was a hot topic and a reoccurring theme I saw people posting here, always asking that exact question mainly for just the reason that you and I are talking about. So I put that together to pretty much put an end to that question and allow people to have a reference when about to ask that question. I am all for getting as much information out and sharing everything I know to help insure that someone does not make the same mistakes I did and go threw the horrors I have been through in my addiction, and I can not happily say that I have been sober for over 2 years and it has not been easy, but, I love life, and I am not willing to let it go with out a fight. However, there is one thing I learned through all of this and that is, that I want to give back. I want to be there now to help those who need some guidance to help reduce the chance that the next person who goes down a road similar to mine, will wind up where I did, being hospitalized for 2 months in acute hepatic and renal failure. Now I am clean and sober and I share everything I know as there is no reason that someone looking for help should ever have to suffer as I did. I am considering trying CWE just as a test to see it myself and learn the mechanisms and how it works, what to expect ect. The best part it, I do not need to take the drugs to test this but I could probably prove with little doubt how successful it was. The only problem is I don't really have much access to perc's or anything. Feel free to msg me if you want to discuss things out side of the forum.

The best teachers of the sober were often at one time the best teachers of how to get fucked up

 

[Swimmingdancer]

Thanks. Only APAP. 80% sounds OK but I have never done a CWE, what are the chances of royally screwing it up and getting a good dose of APAP? The CWE seems straight forward but I have never done it and don't know what to expect.

Well there is one way you can confirm that most of the APAP has been removed, which would be by drying and weighing the material in your final solution, but that would take a lot of patience and an extremely precise scale. Otherwise if you look at the white gunk left in your filter you can get an idea that at least a good portion of the APAP has been removed and at least know that not all the APAP has gone into the water.

Now, my understanding is that you should be able to taste the APAP if it is in any sizable dosage if it's in what should be the Oxy you are left with. I have heard that it should taste very bitter and if it does you know you still have a sizable amount of APAP therefore stay away.

I don't think that is correct, did you mean to say if it doesn't taste very bitter it may still has a lot of APAP in it? Anyway, both APAP and codeine are bitter, so it'd be pretty hard for someone to tell from the taste unless they are experienced with tasting codeine on it's own and APAP on it's own. (Oh and the OP was talking about extracting codeine, not oxy )

 

[painenduser]

Well there is one way you can confirm that most of the APAP has been removed, which would be by drying and weighing the material in your final solution, but that would take a lot of patience and an extremely precise scale. Otherwise if you look at the white gunk left in your filter you can get an idea that at least a good portion of the APAP has been removed and at least know that not all the APAP has gone into the water.


I don't think that is correct, did you mean to say if it doesn't taste very bitter it may still has a lot of APAP in it? Anyway, both APAP and codeine are bitter, so it'd be pretty hard for someone to tell from the taste unless they are experienced with tasting codeine on it's own and APAP on it's own. (Oh and the OP was talking about extracting codeine, not oxy )

Mere details my dear Swimmingdancer, mere details, no your absolutely right, however when I replied to that, I didn't think that there would have been much difference between the two as for as CWE is concerned. I figured they likely would go the same way. As far as the taste, you may be absolutely correct, I am simply repeating what was told to me about it, however as I did state, I have never tried this method myself. Due to my liver disease and due to the lack of having such goodies around my way, I just don't have any practical knowledge, simply what I have read and been told in discussion. I wish I had more hard information to pass along, however, sadly I do not. I was just tying to share what was passed to me, by know means would I have attempted to pass along any misinformation. Hope I didn't cause to much confusion, however the good thing is I do not believe our new Green friend Anoymator was confused or lead to far astray from my points based on his responses Consider myself corrected!

 

[Swimmingdancer]

painenduser - Aw, you are always so kind and polite . You're right, for the purpose of a CWE it makes no difference whether it is codeine or oxycodone. As for the bitterness thing, I was (and am still) confused as to whether you were saying that the codeine should be more bitter or the APAP should be more bitter? Either way I don't think that bitterness is a good indicator of how much APAP has passed through, unfortunately.

Anoymater - Let us know if you end up deciding to do the CWE and need more tips or anything

 

[Anoymator]

Thank you both. I think for now I am satisfied in that I am reading the CWE methods and can see some chance of screwing it up and killing myself. If I wasn't in such a delicate situation I'd possibly risk.

Lastly, codeine phosphate is extremely bitter. I remember trying to take the pills sublingually and having to swallow them because the taste was gross. I always take my pills on an empty stomach anyway so I just swallowed them.

 

[pbuilder]

It's very easy to tell if ur cwe has gone according to plan. The filtered water will be clear or slightly merky, apap is very insoluble in cold water so even crush up 1g apap separately and mix it with like 30mls of cold water and see how obviously visible it is, turning the water almost milky. If I don't use any force at all when doing cwe's I can literally finish off with a bitter liquid as clear as water, I'd say it is even quite easy to remove 99% of the apap with little experience as far as cwe's go because apap is pretty much completely solid in cwe, and this is evidence by the massive solid of white shit left in ur filter.

 

[painenduser]

It's very easy to tell if ur cwe has gone according to plan. The filtered water will be clear or slightly merky, apap is very insoluble in cold water so even crush up 1g apap separately and mix it with like 30mls of cold water and see how obviously visible it is, turning the water almost milky. If I don't use any force at all when doing cwe's I can literally finish off with a bitter liquid as clear as water, I'd say it is even quite easy to remove 99% of the apap with little experience as far as cwe's go because apap is pretty much completely solid in cwe, and this is evidence by the massive solid of white shit left in ur filter.

Excellent pbuilder, much appreciate the added informtaion!

Swimmingdancer, Thank you for the compliment. I do try I am not here to ever cause a stir and always here to help. People in these forums can be very unstable and can easily be pushed over their level of frustration or angst. This is an unfortunate side effect of addiction, drugs, or unstable mentally, at least I know that I was when I was in my addiction, and ever while in recovery I tended to be even more sensitive. Because of this I always appreciated someone who treated me with respect and kind words and I have always felt it better to show everyone your kind side. Not to mention, this is just who I am

As for the bitterness, it had always been my understanding that the filtered side was always the more bitter side, however while this may not be true, it surely proves my niaveness with this method and I am glad that pbuilder has added additional information. I didn't intend to mislead anyone, again just reiterating what I had once been told, but glad to have been corrected and pointed to a better way of identifying that CWE has worked. It's much better to be safe then sorry in this situation as the results could have been very undesired and damaging!

Cheers!

 

[Stato]

I can tell you I've done CWE's on 40x 500mg tablets (20 grams of APAP) and my liver is healthy as.

I've also done a few super CWE's , 40x 500, 24x 500, 12x 500 and 24x500 again in a single drink. No issues.

I just used the filtered CWE water again to dissolve more APAP/codeine tablets in it.

 

[Anoymator]

Awesome replies. I was sort of hinting as I was reading the methods that if the left over liquid was clear, it was pretty much APAP free (+90%). The cloudier/milkier the liquid, the more APAP it would have. But then, I read others mentioning that this is not a bullet proof rule of thumb and that some important quantities of APAP in the left over liquid would still yield a clearish liquid, especially if you use a lot of water.

As I say, I would risk it if I wasn't on this damn medication that has me having to be extra careful with any APAP I ingest. I get tramadol given like candy by docs so that I don't use APAP in large quantities for mild pain relief. Incidentally, I am trying to go off tramadol and the extracted codeine would be used to help the WD in the first 2 days.

 

[painenduser]

I can tell you I've done CWE's on 40x 500mg tablets (20 grams of APAP) and my liver is healthy as.

I've also done a few super CWE's , 40x 500, 24x 500, 12x 500 and 24x500 again in a single drink. No issues.

I just used the filtered CWE water again to dissolve more APAP/codeine tablets in it.

Stato, Since you seem to be the resident expert on CWE, would you mind doing us a huge favor? Would you be able to document some iron clad steps with some built in quality control tips? This would be very helpful for the OP and others like myself and the OP who really should not be taking any APAP to insure that the end result of the CWE process is exactly what we want and more importantly exactly what we don't need? It would be really great if you could do that and then possible update the CWE Mega Thread with this important information. Hopefully this is not to much to ask! Thanks!!