How does *your* brain work?

[Raw Evil]

As you may or may not have read in this post, I have a neurobiological disorder called Asperger's Syndrome. On the most basic level, it's believed to be a difference in brain configuration, meaning that it's something you have your whole life. It's not a disease, and it's not 'curable', not that I'd want it to be.

From what I can tell, I perceive reality similarly to neurotypicals (our word for "normal" people). I see shapes, hear sounds, etc.

However, recently I began to think that my mind actually thinks differently on a fundamental level. What got me started was the fact that in the movies and on TV, people's thoughts are always spoken (i suppose that's really the only way to do it on TV, but that's not the point).

Now, I never actually have "verbal" thoughts, unless of course I am planning to write or say something.

I explained it to a friend like this:

Take sand as an example (The first thing you’ll notice at the beach). The first thought that pops into my head is not the word “sand”, but more like an abstract reference to sand. The reference is linked to the word “sand”, just as it is linked to the fact that it is made of particles, that it is found on the beach, what it looks like, which shows that this particular sand is dry and that that means it is soft. At no time during this whole thought process would I ever need to expand further than a reference to the sand unless I had to describe it or try to understand the physical reaction of sand to, say, a bouncing ball.

My friend told me that he does think in words, to an extent. He hears his “inner voice” telling him what to do, and stuff like that. He also mentioned that when he’s angry he could hear up to three voices at once, all telling him different things. This in itself was amazing to me. I have never experienced such a thing.

Is this “voice” what so many people call their “conscience”? I’d say it’s possible. However, I would not say that having no such voice precludes me from being a moral person. Maybe it is simply that my conscience is more integrated into my conscious mind.

Whatever it is, I'd like to hear anyone else's thoughts on the matter.

Till then,
-Tullo

 

[David]

I have Asperger's as well. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't have the whole speaking to myself thing either. I'm a blank slate, and usually think on terms of touch, sensation, and usually always geometrically.

I am able to visualize complex patterns, and objects, when I am told, that it is impossible. I can visiualize decription of physics theorems, and theories, and tell whether or not they are an accurate description of what is going on. Most people can't understand it when I tell them, hell I don't even understand it, but I do know where you are coming from though.

As far as the inner voice thing, I can't really say anything, I don't really have one.

 

[silverwheel]

I don't have Asperger's (as far as I know), but I know what you're describing. The voice in my head, whatever it is, doesn't ever seem to help me. I've had many periods of my life in which it wasn't there, and in these times my brain is the most receptive to music; I'm able to let the language flow through me in some strangely visual way. There also have been long periods, usually associated with manic depression, in which I fight myself and my intuition. That's when my inner voice wants to be talking all the damn time, and it gets to be something of a Joy Division - Dead Souls kind of feeling (they keep calling me...)

I've been trying to push him (the voice) away from my brain in my therapy over the last seven months, and my mental clarity is returning as he fades away. He seems to be good for some kind of danger situation (ie. fight or flight moment), when something needs to be said to myself, but can really fly out of control. I think it's really curious that I don't need the voice to process experience; in fact, it just hinders it.

Just today I made a bunch of progress with this song I'm writing; I only have the intro and a rough schematic for half of the song, but I know what all of its tones, shapes, colors and lines are going to be. When my mind is a blank slate I'm able to see such things, and I can write in accordance with it.

 

[captainballs]

I have assburgers, they taste like shit!. No, really - I also have been diagnosed with Asperger's by numerous counselors including one I had in a rehab program. I think that however your brain works, if you're motivated properly it can be an advantage in this world, even if you have schizophrenia.

 

[ebola?]

I have no diagnosed DMS disorders...and have little to contribute...except I'm SOOO DRUnk.

I usually think in words...a single voice...can I break outside of discourse?????????

EBOLA

 

[Raw Evil]

Anyone know if having Aspergers would affect your experience of mind-expanding substances? I'm interested to know.

 

[Leg]

I can't really figure out what you mean by the sand example...except that you don't describe things with words? But just look at what they are?

I think that's actually very cool, I try to do that. I mean...knowing what things are is much better than just being able to label them. Labels suck, man, you're always missing something when you label something with a word.

I'd say sometimes...I have...an inner voice...but it's usually not really a voice...but just kind of a feeling. I'd say that happens when you are unsure of your actions, so the different parts of your mind are struggling with each other. Sometimes also, your body will struggle with your mind, but then you don't hear that in your head...you just feel it in your body.

Uhm...so...is Aspergers bad? I'm not really getting what it's about from your post, I guess...I dunno...if Albert Einstein + Bill Gates have it, then it must be pretty cool!

Einstein was freakin' genius. And Gates...well...yea I have respect for him, too...Windows is nice! XP doesn't even crash on me!

I've been thinking lately that I probably have like 5 different disorders, but I don't care to have them analyzed and labelled (cause, like I said, labelling never really helps you out, it's always short of the truth). Uhm...I'm not sure what else to add to this post...I can talk about myself + analyze my thinking for like 50 pages on end, so I don't really know if I should get more into it.

 

[No Nay Xes]

Aspergers seems to make you less social. At least it did that for me. I mean, who actually studies conversation to learn how it's done?

 

[yougene]

Aspergers seems to make you less social. At least it did that for me. I mean, who actually studies conversation to learn how it's done?

word

 

[vegan]

i had never heard about this before, but had thought about the fact that we usually think with words

mushrooms sometimes make me think about concepts that we can't really express through language
and i find myself thinking without using words

if you go back a few thousands years ago, you can easily imagine that it was the same for our ancestors
their thoughts always must have been slighlty ahead of their way to express them.

and if you come back to 2004 on mushrooms, that means our way to express ideas hasn't reached its limit and still has to evolve

 

[qwe]

how od i think?

i havent been diagnosed with any neurological "disorders" except ADD but i can relate to what you're saying... sometimes i think verbally, but most of the time i think completely without words which makes it really hard for me to describe things too... it also makes it harder to validate my thoughts, to make sure they are completely logical, and i frequently try to put thought trains into words to solidify them, or checking for errors some other way when i dont feel like putting my thoughts into words

one of my friends cannot understand how anyone can have abstract thoughts without words... i cant explain to him how it happens

if i look at sand, sometimes i might just hear the word "sand" if my mind is bored and wants soemthing to do, itll say stuff, but if im engrossed in thinking about something (i analyze stuff almost 24/7, mostly psychology and philosophy) i usually do it without words

ever since elementary school ive been trying to figure things out about how my mind thinks, and i think so much in abstract thoughts im not really "in reality" very much, many people are ENTIRELY focused on their "life" and every concrete thing happening in it but im usu. out of it (and anti social too)

if i just sit (especially if im in the car, the engine noise and car bumping alter my reality very much into bliss and curiosity) i will automatically start thinknig about things, find things i dont understand and ponder them, sometimes branching off to other things, and pondering is my favorite pleasure (leary's phrase RPM, revelations per minute, comes up, though id prefer to call it connections per minute)....... if im on a psychedelic, im not that messed up until i just sit and do nothing, and then i splash summer saulting up-forward with cartoons that are at the same time thought trains across my vision and a completely random/scrambled mind/reality (all this from 1 or 2 bowls)

ever since trying psychedelics i have been able to produce complex imagery in my mind, and through meditation and staying conscious as i drift towards sleep, ive been able to make much more complicated images, watching surreal vision-shows is SO entertaining and new, but before my psy. use i didnt notice colors much or produce imagery but i did have a nonverbal thought train usually and was still very curious

ill probly think up of more stuff for this post later... my memory sucks ass (and thats not from pot, i havent been high in a month and ive had terrible short term memory since early childhood)

 

[j33buscr1p3s]

Asperger's is quite often misdiagnosed as ADD, my brother has it, took us 19 years to figure it out. I've always felt what he lacked, and from what I can tell Asperger's people lack is general social relativity. He struggles with the concept of what other people think. Other than that, I don't know that your actual process is any different. If I think of a word, I hear the word and I have some vague idea of a beach or something, I guess it's coupled. When I hear the words its like I'm talking without actually moving my vocal chords I guess. I think this one just has to be chalked up to the fact that you can never know how someone else thinks, for all we know our perceptions could be radically different, and due to the limits of language we can't communicate it.

As for the Asperger's, I find it simply amazing that my brother can't get certain things into his head. He doesn't ever listen to me when I point out the flaws in his idiosyncracies, of which there are many, and it's frustrating, but I can't conceptualize how someone can be confronted with some clearly flawed logic, yet make the conscious choice to continue your habit. It's amazing how differently he rationalizes events than I do, but in all honesty I don't think there's any fundamental disparity in the mechanism for thinking because of the syndrome.

 

[Raw Evil]

Wow, I didn't truthfully expect so many responses.

David: I also have the ability to visualise and understand mathematical equations on a sort of abstract level. I find maths and programming come naturally to me because of it.

Ebola: Lol... I was drunk too, when I made that post about mind expanding substances last night. I don't know whether one can suddenly 'break out of discourse' as you put it.

Leg: You did figure out what I mean, even without fully understanding the sand example. About whether Asperger's is bad, it certainly made my life in school a big challenge. I was constantly up against new and frightening situations which I didn't fully understand. I was the bully-target of years 8 and 9 before I changed schools, and it took until year 11 before I had a sort of epiphany, where I realised.... something (I can't quite put it into words yet - check back later - but it made my life a hell of a lot easier). I am now studying at university, so despite all the challenges I was put up against, I succeeded. In and of itself, I don't think having Asperger's is a bad thing, but it is kind of a mixed blessing.

No Nay Xes: Conversation is hard. I have to concentrate on looking at people's faces and 'read' them to interpret body language. Think of it as running UT2004 in software rendering mode rather than using the 3D card in the computer (how non-nerdy can I put it? ) - it gets tough, but I manage, mostly.

qwe: You're not the only one who thinks that people spend far too much time focusing on their life and the supposedly 'concrete' world around them. Once you realise that perception != reality, you can discover so much more.

j33bus: To me, it's not quite a vague idea of a beach. If there is some way to describe another way of thinking, I haven't the words for it. Temple Grandin put it overly simplistically as "thinking in pictures", but there's a little more to it than that. When I hear the words, it's nothing like talking at all.

About your brother, a lot of other Aspies that I have met seem very confident in their own abilities. One person I knew kept sending his g/f flowers because 'she was sad', but the reason she was 'sad' was because he didn't realise that she was letting him go.

 

[j33buscr1p3s]

^^
Actually the way you describe is very similar to the way I feel...I was just attempting to put it into words. I think maybe what we're getting at here is how limited our thought is by language, almost as if there's something going on we don't have the proper words to describe.

 

[Raw Evil]

It's more like a fundamental design flaw in language itself: it was designed to communicate shapes, colours, numbers, and (more recently) scientific theories. Thought processes are not directly translatable to words, though we have 'made up' many ways to attempt to communicate them.

 

[kittyinthedark]

^ exactly. This is why there are words in every language that cannot be translated exactly, especially those that convey broader ideas. For example: the word "tree" has a literal translation in just about every languange I'm sure. It's pretty obvious to everyone what a tree is (even to those with Asperger's, although they might see a picture of a tree more readily... ) However, consider the three words "hate," "animosity," and "disgust." Most English thesauri would list these as synonyms, but many languages either do not incorporate exact translations or don't even have a word for them. They all convey a bad feeling, but with subtle connotations. How would you describe the differences between all three? That is where the subtlety of the human mind begins to become very interesting....

 

[punktuality]

I find myself thinking in words fairly often however I always try to clear my mind and break free of that way of operation. When I force myself to not use words I find my mind flows clearer and a meditative state of cognition is reached. however when not thinking in words I often find it difficult to articulate ideas. I know that my mind understands the concepts it is dealing with but without the use of words (or more correctly symbols) my mind cant take ideas to that next level of what one might call intellectualism.

As much benefit as I believe seeing and thinking without words and symbols is I also cannot deny the great effect these have had on our development. What words and symbols have allowed us to do is simplify ideas so that we can combine more than one idea together. Our comprehension of words and symbols are indeed very much a cornerstone of why we as humans have such good memories and such high level of intelligence.

 

[Raw Evil]

I understand what you mean by using language to create articulate ideas, punktuality. I sometimes manually "explain" things to myself as if I were explaining it to someone else to "set in stone" a thought pattern when I feel distracted. There are benefits to using symbolic language in a lot of situations, the biggest example being mathematics.

For example,

z = (b + 7)x - 5y / 3

is better written on paper as that, than

"Z equals the sum of B and seven times X, minus five Y over three" (already that begins to become ambiguous!)

In most situations I can "abstractise" (like "visualise" but it's not really visual, so I've made up another word lol) numbers so that I can perform calculations more simply. I can round numbers to an easily-used number (like multiples of 100 or 1000), do the calculation, and re-introduce the rounding error (usually a smaller, easier number, put through the same calculation) very quickly. It's almost like the numbers become solid objects, and I can chop them to a manageable size and manipulate them like a casino dealer would deal chips.

However, when formulae become complex, I find it necessary to write down the formula in a solid, symbolic form so that I can "see the whole picture" (that's another problem us Aspies have, seeing the big picture when we are usually so finely attuned to details that we ignore a lot of what's going on).

 

[bleedingheartcommie]

I do think with a voice in my head unless i'n doing something mathmatical or logical. Also I think the "voice" is more of your psyche rather than your soul. Through meditation i try to silent the voice and i admire your ability to think w/o it.

 

[Raw Evil]

Well, it's not so much an ability as an oddity really - calling it an ability would imply that I actually make a conscious effort into thinking that way, whereas it's simply something that happens. Either way, I still think of it as a gift of sorts, I feel that it allows me to see things more objectively.

I wonder what meditation would offer me, if not the silencing of a seemingly-nonexistant voice. I'll have to try it sometime.