How does Ketamine differ from the Psychedelic Experience?

[babylonboy]

No, dissociatives can completely unwind your sense of self, your conception of the boundaries between you and the rest of reality, your identity, your awareness of your corporeal form. Dissociatives can lead to experiences of entity contact, astral projection, OOBEs, transcendence, Lilliputuan hallucinations, new profundity with each passing moment, truly radical shifts in consciousness that are every bit as powerful as the deepest psychedelics. You really seem to be wedded to this idea that they are escapist, numbing, worthless drugs, despite the fact you have no experience, it's often better, if you're trying to understand a new thing, to be willing to entertain ideas that differ from your preconceptions.

 

[Azurite08]

What babylonboy said. Mission, you seem oddly adamant about the inferiority of psychedelics for someone who has never done them. Yes, dissociatives have more addictive potential than psychedelics, but whether that makes them worth taking is entirely up for debate. They can induce experience which are every bit as profound and life-changing as a psychedelic breakthrough. Some people can't handle either, some prefer to use one or the other, but neither is better or worse. Drugs are just drugs in the end.

 

[Solipsis]

Yes it is different with drugs like alcohol, alcohol works on GABA and many other systems (actually NMDAr as well) but it mainly works as a big off switch. Experience and awareness but also the brakes on behavioral control are indiscriminately blunted and inhibited. The effect is that it dumbs everything down and tunes it all out, and the things that do get through are relatively blown out of proportion, things become a lot more simple and black & white, explaining childish or caveman like behavior.

Dissociative drugs take away our ability to comprehend much faster than our awareness, meaning that we become dissociated first and anaesthesized later. This is key: if you are still aware there is an impulse that tries to make sense of things that is not necessarily blunted, we try to construct a sensible perception of reality but become increasingly unable to. This failure leads to things like hallucinations or auditory or visual distortions and also ego loss and it an quite different from becoming gradually unconscious altogether. You can't feel like half-existing in a void if the light is completely dimmed, but you can if the light is still on but all dispersion of light is obscured and fragmented.

the more what we experience and how we relate to that blurs together the more we lose sight of what the difference is between ourselves and everything else.

One of the most essential tools we have to derive our sense of self is by distinguishing, differentiating and determining what does relate to us and what does not, what we are and what we are not, for example that the boundary of our bodies is basically our skin. Imagine when the ability to sense where that boundary lies gradually fades and is lost altogether. How are you then able to tell where you end and the the rest of the world begins? This is not only true for our bodily perception but also individual or cultural: we see ourselves as an inhabitant of a country or a member of a gender, exactly that and not another. When you lose the answers to these questions it is impossible to tell yourself who or what you are.

Psycholysis means the dissolution of the psyche.

What babylonboy says is true: before you lose yourself with a dissociative drug you first lose grip on perception of the outside world. Spatial perspective and things like that can become very distorted. At some point contact with the outside world is lost completely and this is typically when it is called a K-hole with ketamine. The world you experience then is entirely internal, if the dose is not too high you don't yet completely lose yourself of self but there are often no clear lines between what is possible or impossible just like with a dream.
When awareness and intention are retained it is then possible to create a world of your own and live in that imagination. Similar things can happen in lucid dreams.

 

[mission780]

Thank you for your explanations and descriptions. They are very skillful. I think I can now imagine dissociatives better. Of course, I would have to try it to really understand/feel it. With psychedelics I have some experience so I can relate much better.

Maybe some day I will want to experience the dissociative experience. (For the time being, I feel psychedelics work perfectly for me).
But if I decided I want to try a dissociative, which one would you say is the safest and worthy enough? I don't want to risk the possibility of an addition. BTW are all dissociatives highly addictive?

 

[babylonboy]

No, they are not, some people can find that they end up compulsively using a great deal, but they are not addictive physically in the same way as opiates and benzodiazepines, nor do they induce the kind of powerful psychological craving that psychostimulants do. Most people who use dissociatives will not become addicted. Ketamine has undergone clinical trials, is short lived in its effects, and less prone to induce mania than other drugs of this class, and is also more available and a good place to start. You might also consider nitrous oxide.

 

[Solipsis]

Maybe dissociatives are not extremely addictive like potent stimulants can be short AND long-term or benzo's or opiates on the long term but I can tell you from experience that there can still be cravings to ketamine and I would rate the addiction potential to it moderate and still considerable. I've been through benzo withdrawals which were terrible for a long time, but I found it more difficult to stay away from ketamine. Psychological addiction is not something to underestimate and a lot of people got that the wrong way around. If you are not psychologically dependent you can more likely muster the motivation to overcome physical addiction.
A key factor is probably whether you are a person who has escapist or self-medicating tendencies. If you have a history of using drugs that way ketamine or DXM can become ideal drugs of abuse. But if you have a history of using drugs only incidentally and considering them as just as an extra in your life to make it a little bit more interesting then maybe it is less of a bad idea.

We don't really recommend drugs to each other on this forum but nitrous oxide is at the same time an interesting and elusive short-lived dissociative trip that can give you an idea of the effects, I wouldn't go with DXM since in my opinion it has a lot more side-effects than other dissociatives. BB ^ has a few good points yes.

 

[mission780]

Maybe dissociatives are not extremely addictive like potent stimulants can be short AND long-term or benzo's or opiates on the long term but I can tell you from experience that there can still be cravings to ketamine and I would rate the addiction potential to it moderate and still considerable. I've been through benzo withdrawals which were terrible for a long time, but I found it more difficult to stay away from ketamine. Psychological addiction is not something to underestimate and a lot of people got that the wrong way around. If you are not psychologically dependent you can more likely muster the motivation to overcome physical addiction.
A key factor is probably whether you are a person who has escapist or self-medicating tendencies. If you have a history of using drugs that way ketamine or DXM can become ideal drugs of abuse. But if you have a history of using drugs only incidentally and considering them as just as an extra in your life to make it a little bit more interesting then maybe it is less of a bad idea.

We don't really recommend drugs to each other on this forum but nitrous oxide is at the same time an interesting and elusive short-lived dissociative trip that can give you an idea of the effects, I wouldn't go with DXM since in my opinion it has a lot more side-effects than other dissociatives. BB ^ has a few good points yes.

I consider myself definitely in the "self-medicating" category. But I've never experienced a dissociative state so I cannot tell for sure

Thank you for your posts Solipsis. They are full of real knowledge and very useful!

 

[lovepsychadelics]

I have a bit of experience with Ketamine, which is extremely sedating, but I have more experience with more stimulating dissociatives such as MXE. They are quite different than psyches like LSD, mushrooms, or phenethylamines.

In general, small doses feel euphoric, and it can be a bit like alcohol/opiates in its intoxication. High doses bring about a trip that can be IMO just as profound as traditional psyches. Moderation is always the key dude. Used properly it can feel very clean, blissful, and liberating. Abuse dissociatives and they certainly can take you to a dark, dirty, lonely place (but so can psychedelics). Start low dosage and work your way up.

I personally love MXE/Ketamine because you dont need to plan a 6-12 hour saga in order to have a solid trip. But beware, the rabbit hole can be extremely addictive, and if you chase it too fervently, it can bite your ass like you can't imagine.

Effects are subjective, and no one can really describe a dissociative trip/hole to you. Gotta try it yourself. I won't promise you will enjoy it as every one has different tastes. But I will say it can be rewarding and highly therapeutic. If you're ready to make peace with mortality/life I'd say take the trip. Personally dissociatives have helped my anxiety/depression more so than psychedelics. LSD makes me a neurotic mess, whereas K relaxes me and gives me peace of mind.

Abuse of dissociatives can eventually cause the same paranoid neurosis I get with LSD. Start with a small dose and try for yourself.

Also long term effects, dissociatives tend to be a little rougher on the body , and abuse of K has been proven to cause bladder problems.

PS. Start with small bumps. 200 mg is a massive dose of K. If you have a scale, weigh out 10-20 mg and sniff that. Wait an hour to see how you feel, and proceed with those small bumps until you learn the substance. Cant stress enough that unlike LSD, you can use Ketamine daily and it can hurt your mind and body with addictive abuse.

That must be the first time I've heard someone describe MXE as stimulating... K n MXE are both fairly similar in my opinion re: sedation. Indeed MXE reminds me of a nicer version of H in some respects. PCP and 3 meo pcp are stimulating dissociatives. Be very careful with both they demand respect and I mean DEMAND. Combining dissociatives with psychedelics can be fucking intense although I'd advise against 3 meo pcp/pcp combo's with almost anything else, they are unique enough on their own and combo's with other substances while on pcp/3 meo pcp have caused many a train wreck. Wish I had some K to go with this miprocin...

 

[Solipsis]

I consider myself definitely in the "self-medicating" category. But I've never experienced a dissociative state so I cannot tell for sure

Thank you for your posts Solipsis. They are full of real knowledge and very useful!

Np, that's nice of you to say.
Asking these questions and researching before experimenting is the responsible thing to do and it helps making more conscious and conscientious decisions.
I'm sure we're all happy to help with that. This is a HR forum after all.

@lovepsychedelics:

MXE, ketamine and a lot of other arylcyclohexylamines can certainly be stimulating:

Arylcyclohexylamines varyingly possess NMDA receptor antagonistic,[2][3] dopamine reuptake inhibitory,[4] and μ-opioid receptor agonistic[5] properties. Additionally, σ receptor agonistic,[6] nACh receptor antagonistic,[7] and D2 receptor agonistic[8] actions have been reported for some of these agents. Antagonism of the NMDA receptor confers anesthetic, anticonvulsant, neuroprotective, and dissociative effects; blockade of the dopamine transporter mediates stimulant and euphoriant effects as well as psychosis in high amounts; and activation of the μ-opioid receptor causes analgesic and euphoriant effects. Stimulation of the σ and D2 receptors may also contribute to hallucinogenic and psychomimetic effects.[8]

Don't confuse anaesthesia with sedation even if both are associated with becoming immobilized.

MXE tends to be more stimulating than ketamine, and it can be harder to hole on MXE than on ketamine. But the R-isomer of ketamine appears to be relatively more stimulating than the S-isomer and taking pure R-ket is hardly if at all immobilizing or anaesthetic. Also ketamine is relatively more stimulating at low doses, at moderate to high doses the other qualities take over. This is why it is not uncommon for people to consider ketamine a party drug and it is 'bumped' rather than 'railed' in such a setting. But it is controversial to party on K because enthoused people can easily take a bit too much of it and the steeply increasing dissociation can become practical, awkward or even dangerous.