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How does karma work?

well, when you explain it like a rational person and all, domokun.

i think the cliche "what goes around comes around" implies a distance that most people with the "western misconception" associate with that word. hence my saying it doesn't exist.
 
But it does to some extent. If you go to a rowdy pub and punch someone in the face, you're likely to get punched in the fact. If you give someone pink eye, you're more likely to get pink eye. If you make someone dinner, it's more likely they'll make you a dinner.
It's not as simple as 'what goes around comes around' it's more like 'vibes spread, man'
Give good vibes, more good vibes will be around. Give bad vibes, more bad vibes will be around.
I mean you could get into the whole we're all one thing so by helping each other we're helping ourselves and yada yada but that is mystical mumbo jumbo.
If you think cause and effect doesn't exist, I suggest you don't meet up with any whales in the Arctic because they've got this notion down pat.
 
i think the question should be - is it orally right or wrong to give the girl money?

in that case i think its morally right for you to give a person who needs help some money because i recognise it is good to live in a society where you get help when you need it.

but it is wrong for her to decieve you becuase who wants to live in a world where people are lying a deceiving each other?

and maybe the drugs give the girl great pleasure and they benefit her life in which case maybe she is doing they right thing and lying to get the money is the best way to obtain it.
 
Karma is good (at least) because it has a great placebo-effect. Even if you don't necessarily believe that doing good/bad will cause good/bad to be done to you, if you live under the pretense that the universe works this way, you can at least avoid some pain. In general, repetitive good deeds will result in more good consequences than repetitive bad deeds. So if you make it your goal to do any many good things as possible each day (no matter what the reason - be it for karma or because pink chipmunks in your imagination tell you to do so), you'll see more good consequences and it will help you feel better and make life go more smoothly. So when I say that it has a good placebo effect, everything I've said above can still happen even if karma is completely meaningless on a scientific level. This doesn't so much hold true for more traditional religion, which tends to put a lot of justification for certain things/actions/behaviours in it actually being ultimate truth.
 
But it does to some extent. If you go to a rowdy pub and punch someone in the face, you're likely to get punched in the fact. If you give someone pink eye, you're more likely to get pink eye. If you make someone dinner, it's more likely they'll make you a dinner.
It's not as simple as 'what goes around comes around' it's more like 'vibes spread, man'
Give good vibes, more good vibes will be around. Give bad vibes, more bad vibes will be around.
I mean you could get into the whole we're all one thing so by helping each other we're helping ourselves and yada yada but that is mystical mumbo jumbo.
If you think cause and effect doesn't exist, I suggest you don't meet up with any whales in the Arctic because they've got this notion down pat.

poor whales and dolphins.

i meant as an idea of justice, not cause and effect.

as in, a random guy gets away with raping a girl he doesn't know one night and she never tells and he goes on about his daily life. so bad things then happen to him later on in life, as a result of the rape.

as you explain it, i'd take it the bad karma would be the girls life then being negatively impacted (and therefore those close to her).

no poetic justice there, just common sense.
 
i think it works in the sense that if you do good things, you will feel better about yourself and if you do bad things you will feel bad about yourself. unless you are a psychopath.
 
@Deathdomokun

The cause and effects you are talking about are not any one cohesive entity/force/effect/phenomena and should not be all called by the same word "Karma" and b) most of them have nothing to do with simply the action being good or bad in some subjective human sense.

I.e. Giving someone a contagious disease (like the pink eye you mentioned) means you are more likely to be re-exposed, sure. But is contagion and infection at all related to goodness or badness? No, nor is it true of contagion in general. If I give you the flu, I am not going to catch it back from you, because I will be immune to that strain already, since that's how the flu works, if I give you hep a on a glass in a restaurant, it's not likely I will catch it back as a result.

If I punch you in the face, you'll probably hit me back more as a base instinct response, without regards to it's goodness or wrongness, at least at the time. If a policeman comes and arrests me for it, it's because he gets paid to do that rather then goodness/badness of it.

If I don't get caught committing a murder, then nothing happens to me. No karma. The reverse is true if I help someone and get no credit for it.

people have the weirdest ways of understanding karma..

to me the simplest way to understand this old notion is that what goes up, must come down
we could call this gravity
since its 2012
How about if it went up at a rate greater then the escape velocity of the body it's going up away from? How about if I keep putting force upwards until I'm out of the gravity well and on my way to the Moon? How about if it's less dense then the medium (air, water, etc) it's in and stays up from buoyancy? There is no over-reaching physical law that means all things which go up must also come down, as there is not one that "goodness" and "badness" have any effect on the person who did them.
 
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i think people get confused and end up taking on the 'my name is earl' approach to karma - where what goes around comes around - which is completely stupid and not how it works. I hate running into these 'spiritual' people. People only do good things because it is pragmatic for them or at best, just makes them feel good. If you're doing something for 'karma' then you are just being selfish or doing it purely for pragmatic reasons.

The basic idea is that you do good in this life then you will receive salvation or have a better after life or next life. This is still pragmatic i guess but it's not in a direct sense, so in this lifetime you do good as an end in itself rather than as a means to have a better current life. You should only do things that are in end in themselves and not a means to something else. It's not like well if you do something nice for someone then it goes in a karma bank and eventually it'll pay you in a couple of weeks. That's pragmatic.
 
Cause and effect is the phenomenon/force. That is Karma.
You're picking faults with my examples, instead of the theory behind them.
Let's say I see somebody fall over. I can laugh at them, and spit on them as I pass by. I can tell off other people laughing. I can help them up.
All of those actions will carry Karma. If I were to spit on them, it would spread bad karma as they're more likely to act 'negatively' in a subsequent situation. If I were to help them up and ask if they're alright, they're more likely to be more compassionate in a subsequent situation.
I was talking about pink eye by farting on someone's pillow.
If you instigate a fight, I'm more likely to fight you than if you were being peaceful. With regard to taking offence to getting punched in the face, irrespective of base instinct response as the rest of my punches won't be directly caused by a base instinct response.
Aren't you listening to me? It's not about you getting credit for the karma. Anonymous actions can create karma, and the karma doesn't have to affect the creator (of said karma)
In your murder example, legal punishment is not an act of karma. The karma is the affect the murder has, whether that's how you make the family feel or whether the guy was an actor and you can't finish a film or what. Karma is not about the person creating the karma, it's about the people affected by it.
Same with your helping example. It's not about you getting credit, it's about the person getting help.

I expect better reading comprehension and debate from you, sir.
 
Cause and effect is the phenomenon/force. That is Karma.

But it's not one thing, it's such a broad and abstract concept as to be devoid of all but the most superficial level of meaning. It says nothing beyond "Stuff happens cause some stuff happened before it." It has nothing to do with morals, or humans specifically, and the principle is as validly applied to a comet falling into Jupiter (The CAUSE was it's orbit bringing it near to Jupiter's gravity the EFFECT is a dot visible on the telescope where it impacted for a few days.) or tree falling over (CAUSE: fast wind in storm EFFECT a tree floating in the river.) as it is to anything else, and it's not meaningful to try and consider this different when it happens to people.

In your murder example, legal punishment is not an act of karma/
Why not then? It's an effect resulting from a cause too.
 
It has everything to do with morals. It's got to do with relativity and subjective ethics. It's about what you take offence to and yada yada.
I don't know how to make this any more clear. Depending on your moral stance, the way you react to an action and what you derive from an action-
Karma is not a moral code, and that's not what I'm saying at all. Karma is much more primal and rational than morals.
Karma is the influence of others on your emotions altering your actions. Karma works in conjunction with your own morals and tastes/preferences and opinions and anything else that comes into play.
For example, you put a sadist and a masochist in a room with some rope and a whip and a lighter and some candles. You then put 2 sadists in the same room. You then put a mother and her child in that room.
They all have to perform the same task (something objective) and the way this makes them feel (according to subjective preferences and opinions) will affect their consequent actions and their perceived ethics of the situation at hand.
Karma is applied to anything, yes. It's a universal force. You could say the reason you hear is from karma, and how you relate to the sound is from your subjective shit affecting your cochlea which interprets air as either negative or positive.
With your example though, the karma is what effect that tree now has in the river. You see, if it were to crash into a house boat that would spread bad karma, but if it were to save somebodies life because they were drowning somehow it would spread good karma.
In this sense, karma is one thing just like space or time is one thing, and has about as much meaning as either. [emotions and (re)actions being the measuring tool, instead of seconds and metres]

The legal punishment isn't karma because karma is about the people affected. It only becomes karma once you're punished for the action. Karma is about effect. The causer doesn't always experience the effect, and the effect isn't about the causer, it simply originates from it.
I should have said the lack of legal punishment. The karma would be the murder causing detectives to put their time and energy into working out who did it, although you have to go back in time because that act didn't cause them to get that job so their being in that situation depends on predetermined things and everything is connected but at the same time there is little correlation between anything because the shit is confusing.
 
Karma is the influence of others on your emotions altering your actions. Karma works in conjunction with your own morals and tastes/preferences and opinions and anything else that comes into play.

That it is so subjective makes it lack any meaning at all. Surely we will have situations which make one person happy and the other unhappy, it contradicts itself if you try to take karma then as being independent of a given, single observer, and arguably, the same observer in the same situation on different sides of it, or at different times, would have a different feeling about it? So it's totally arbitrary in every way.

Karma is applied to anything, yes. It's a universal force. You could say the reason you hear is from karma, and how you relate to the sound is from your subjective shit affecting your cochlea which interprets air as either negative or positive.

So, essentially, Karma is the concept of energy and matter interacting somehow? Is not the standard model and general relativity not a better treatment of that issue?

With your example though, the karma is what effect that tree now has in the river. You see, if it were to crash into a house boat that would spread bad karma, but if it were to save somebodies life because they were drowning somehow it would spread good karma.
What if nothing of the sort happened? What if no sentient animal even noticed? If Karma is nothing more then a human or sentient being having a subjective emotional response, it's again hard to even call it a thing that can be discussed objectively, and in any event, is probably well handled by psychology and perhaps neurophysiology in the usual methods.

In this sense, karma is one thing just like space or time is one thing, and has about as much meaning as either. [emotions and (re)actions being the measuring tool, instead of seconds and metres]

While one can sit down and do dimensional analysis on things measured in seconds or meters or dollars or electronvolts or whatever, emotions are so intangible, arbitrary, and not standard that it defies the ability to do this, as a measure of anything, they are not useful.

The legal punishment isn't karma because karma is about the people affected. It only becomes karma once you're punished for the action. Karma is about effect. The causer doesn't always experience the effect, and the effect isn't about the causer, it simply originates from it.

The causer always experiences some of the effect. He or she had to have some little effect from doing whatever action was needed to cause it. Maybe I enjoyed murdering that person? Hey, my enjoyment was part of the effect, ya? Maybe carrying the cup of coffee to you that you spilled and it caused you to strike up convo and meet your GF, well maybe carrying it was slightly uncomfy because the cup was hot in my hand, still it is some aspect of the effect.

everything is connected but at the same time there is little correlation between anything because the shit is confusing.
So, you've arrived at conclusion that is akin to "lolwut".
 
The things it works in conjunction with (morals, tastes, opinions) are subjective, karma itself (as a concept) is objective, and the outcome as a result of both of these things has both objective and subjective elements.
I never tried to make karma independent of the observer. Contrary, karma works in conjunction with the observer and they are connected/entangled. The 2 people in question may feel differently about it, or be affected differently, but they're still experiencing the same phenomenon (karma)

No, Karma is not the concept of energy and matter interacting. It is the concept of cause and effect, hence my example of air particles getting pushed into your ear causing bones to vibrate and then send a signal to your cochlea which your brain then interprets as sound.

If nothing is affected by the action, there is no Karma. Now, you can take into account the karma felt by the other trees who might have wanted to fertilise the fallen tree or some lumberjack who wanted to cut it down for wood or the bird who lost it's next. I reiterate, if nothing is affected, there is no Karma. It is neutral.

I only mentioned emotions as they are the origin/contribute to actions. Karma is measured in (re)actions. One can sit down and analyse different actions and speculate as to why this occurred, they're usually sociologists or psychologists, not physicists. Seconds and metres are arbitrary, too.

Exactly. If you experience some effect, you experience some Karma as a result of participation. If you aren't affected, you don't.

Yes. Everything is LOLWUT


Now I could go onto the kharmic/dharmic theory that kharmic actions are selfless and dharmic actions are selfish but I believe to be able to act in a way that disregards the effects one will experience and focuses on the affect it will have on another requires self to be able to determine that. Even though the end result is void of self, self is required to reach such a stage. Which is like throwing a baseball and then ignoring the space it travelled through and just saying it went from x to x without specifying how, which devalues the throw entirely. Who said it was even a throw?

I reiterate, everything is LOLWUT
 
The things it works in conjunction with (morals, tastes, opinions) are subjective, karma itself (as a concept) is objective, and the outcome as a result of both of these things has both objective and subjective elements.
What is objective about it? What about the actions and their consequences, is subjective, that is, I can measure and describe all the events in a dispassionate and amoral terms? Those things which are objective, like say the knife wound that someone suffered, and how it caused them to die, can be done in such a manner, and they are also the things which outside observers can see and agree on. (Hence objective) How the person who I just shanked BF feels internally about losing his GF, I can not measure directly, it is purely subjective and prone to the bias and error of individual minds.

No, Karma is not the concept of energy and matter interacting. It is the concept of cause and effect, hence my example of air particles getting pushed into your ear causing bones to vibrate and then send a signal to your cochlea which your brain then interprets as sound.
What exactly about air (matter) moving in an elastic manner (energy) causing (interaction) bones (matter) to themselves undergo elastic deformation (energy) which send a signal (interaction) to the brain (matter) which is processed in some manner involving chemicals and ions (matter) to change their arrangement's (interaction) and thus evoke electric fields (energy) that is not about matter, energy and their interactions again?

Cause and Effect: I throw baseball at window, it hits window, it transfer energy to window, window has bending moment and deforms to the point of brittle failure, window is broken. Ergo, it broke because I tossed a ball at it, is well described as interactions of matter and energy, no?

If nothing is affected by the action, there is no Karma. Now, you can take into account the karma felt by the other trees who might have wanted to fertilise the fallen tree or some lumberjack who wanted to cut it down for wood or the bird who lost it's next. I reiterate, if nothing is affected, there is no Karma. It is neutral.
An action with no effect is not an action. At a minimum, the tree, the air it fell thru and the water around it are somehow affected.

I only mentioned emotions as they are the origin/contribute to actions. Karma is measured in (re)actions. One can sit down and analyse different actions and speculate as to why this occurred, they're usually sociologists or psychologists, not physicists. Seconds and metres are arbitrary, too.
Psychologists are still using the scientific method, reductionist, naturalistic, dispassionate, like any other scientist. And hey, I'd challenge them to come up with fMRI or PET or spectroscopy of brain tissues or anything of that sort without some nerd talking about tiny dots that spin around and carry charges and all that. But that they can successfully approach the area of emotion with all the rigor and bland passive third person writing that a geologist can use with regards to rocks, shows these things too can be explained physically, albeit an equation that solves for someones brain state is a long ways off...

Seconds and meters are arbitrary, but a second is a second is a second, a meter is always the same length, and when I say "75m/s" I can be sure that each one of the meters and seconds is the same, that 75 is exactly 75 times more then 1. Not so with peoples emotions, I can't say if your happiness is the same as mine in that sense, hence emotions are not useful constructs by which to measure the quantity of an object in some given dimension.

Now I could go onto the kharmic/dharmic theory that kharmic actions are selfless and dharmic actions are selfish but I believe to be able to act in a way that disregards the effects one will experience and focuses on the affect it will have on another requires self to be able to determine that. Even though the end result is void of self, self is required to reach such a stage. Which is like throwing a baseball and then ignoring the space it travelled through and just saying it went from x to x without specifying how, which devalues the throw entirely. Who said it was even a throw?

What makes something selfish or selfless? Can I measure it?

I can talk about object going from one point to another without discussion of the space it passed though, or similar terms. It's common as fuck, because that stuff is usually moot and makes no difference, or else can be handled case by case, but it's not fallacious to discuss, say, an electron moving though a chamber without trying to arrive at it's precise path...partly because the concept of a precise path is meaningless in the case we are discussing a thing which is partly wave-like and for which one can not resolve both momentum and position to an exact level.

The same can apply to a baseball, if I am just trying to measure how far, fast and what sort of trajectory it had, it does not matter if it was thrown, lobbed by a machine, or appeared out of thin air due to a wizard
 
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I never said their emotions were subjective. I'm saying any observer can see them crying.

Although emotions can be electrochemical and neurons can send shit along dendrites and all this shit from HS psychology, we can't measure them accurately yet, which is why Karma encompasses both concepts. I was wrong to say it wasn't energy and matter interacting.

Nothing conscious is affected. The air can't have any sort of emotional or logical response, only physical/energetical. Now, the moment somebody walks past and has to change tracks because a fallen tree is in the way and then in turn gets bitten by a snake is when it becomes karmic to both the person and the snake. In fact there's probably some animals living in it and eating it and shit so it was already karmic to them.

Exactly, it's a long way off. Psychiatrists and neurologists can't just do some shit to see what's going in on your brain and then conclude you're thinking 'Man she's hot as fuck. Now I want some pepperoni pizza. Maybe I'll go key that car. I'm gonna kill myself tonight' and they can't see 'This person is experiencing (insert emotion)' as emotions are subjective because even if we share commonalities between say anguish none are tantamount, let alone conveyable. I mean explain pink, or green.

Emotions aren't physical. From what we know, if you fired some neurons or whatever the fuck so it was identical to another person they won't be experiencing the same thing. Just like if you give someone a drug, they'll experience commonalities that are rigid whilst simultaneously experiencing subjective effects.

Correlation and shit, there's a lack of it.
 
There is no coming around. This isn't a justice system.
Treat others how you want to be treated is extremely flawed, as desires are subjective and transient.
Treat others how you assume they want to be treated is less flawed, but still too flawed to be valid.
Treat others how they've expressed they want to be treated is acceptable, although I can think of many scenarios in which people express lies, or unaware of a desire that is waiting to be aroused, in which case it is 'better' to act against their expressed desire.
There is no blanket statement for this, it's situational and transient.
 
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