Harm Reduction How Do You Get an Addict Friend To Appreciate Harm Reduction

[bennyZA]

I have a very close friend, from what I can remember, I think he's my oldest friend probably 20+ years (man I'm getting old). In the last 2 years he and I got off the dope, and then we stopped chillin cause I moved to another part of the metropolitan area we live in. We recently hung out for the first time in a long time because I heard he started up again, but unlike before, he started IVing. I know him so well that I visit him a lot now even when he's high to make sure he is okay and is doing well, eating enough, staying hygienic, keeping him on track so he doesn't get evicted, being there for him so he doesn't feel alone and depressed, and basically everything he's decided to stop doing cause he just wants to get high (I do not give him money, but I do buy him stuff like toiletry, clothes, groceries). I know hanging out with someone who gets high all the time is a really bad idea for someone who got off the opiates recently, but I'd rather he not die or irreparably injure himself - like I did - more than I worry about going back to the dope. I've had a few craving around him, but I really don't want to go down that route again.

So I'm really trying to give him some good HR info, I try to get him to read Erowid or BL, I'm trying to get some Narcan for him and explain what it is. I'm also pretty sure he's not IVing correctly, he always heats up his gear till it's bubbling. Despite all the things I've said, the stuff I've showed him, the things I've done for him, he could care less about HR. I sometimes I find him in a puddle of his own drool and last time I nearly had to call 911 cause it took forever to wake his ass up and I was freaking out. I've gotten mad at him a few times in the recent weeks because of the stupid ass reckless shit he does. I try to explain to him that BLers are not going to judge or be mean, they are just going to give sound advice.

How do I convince him to care just enough to start paying attention to some basic HR? Not even sign up to bluelight or anything, but at least get him to research things, and at the very least, he has even the most basic HR on his mind.

Just going to put this out there. This dude is like a brother to me, we've been through it all together. I could never abandon him so that he 'learns his lesson' on his own.

 

[ComfortablyNumb95]

Dunno maybe tell him that with a bit of research be can save his life and get high more "efficently" (how to IV properly, how to prepare his gear...)
From what I've read you seem a very caring and good friend and he should really listen to you

 

[bennyZA]

Dunno maybe tell him that with a bit of research be can save his life and get high more "efficently" (how to IV properly, how to prepare his gear...)
From what I've read you seem a very caring and good friend and he should really listen to you

You'd think he'd listen to me. He gets these dark periods of self-loathing and apathy where he doesn't give a shit about anything. It makes things so damn hard, but he's been there for me when I was like that.

I like the idea that I could suggest that there are ways to get higher and not tell him they are actually HR tips. Maybe get him to start researching for efficient methods online, and maybe he'll read some stuff that helps. It's a risky idea, but the pay off could be worth it.

 

[WorldWarMe]

From experience if they do not have a personal interest in the subject they will not pursue researching it. It's how most people are with everything. If they don't want to, they won't. With addicts this is even more so.
Maybe try forcing the info on him. Gather some studies or facts/HR topics and print them out. Sit with him and force him to read them. Maybe he will realise what he's doing isn't safe and start being more careful. I advise printing out the most severe cases you can find as it would probably have a higher chance of affecting him.

 

[bingey]

^
The sad thing is you are probably right. The only practical thing I can think of is giving him money to buy dope if he meets certain conditions but I guess that would fuck up the friendship even more than it is now.

oh get him IV supplies. Alcohol , sterile water , cookers , needles , q-tips . Even with no harm reduction mentality , easy acces to these items will reduce health risks (infections, abscesses,etc) , , I mean he might not use the swabs but the convenience of grabbing a vial of sterile water or a new rig is good.

Does he use alone? Maybe try to get at other (younger?) users around him , might rub off on him.

 

[bennyZA]

He does use alone a lot. He also has some friends he'll shoot up with. They're nice guys but even more fucked up then him when it comes to this stuff. Where do I get all those IV supplies. I personally have never IV'd

Another thing I think I forgot to mention. A while back he was fiending when I was still on suboxone. He was about to go score on the street in a fucked up part of town, and I gave him a couple subs to hold him over during the craving. Since his tolerance was so low, the bupe got him fucked up. I don't know if this caused the relapse, but I'm just going to assume it did. So I feel responsible for him till he gets his shit together. At the time I felt like it was the right thing to do.

 

[dopemegently]

You shouldn't feel responsible for that; In the drug world IME there are far few people trying to look out for each other as you did, I feel you did nothing wrong, and sure as hell shouldn't blame his relapse on yourself.

He's into shooting, and if he refuses to consider harm reduction, things could go very badly for him (though it's more than likely he's too high to think about consequences), so it's a stand up thing you're trying to do for him.
He's not sharing needles, I hope?

At the very least, he's going to need clean works, sterile water, citric acid, filters, etc. Harm reduction is quite big in the UK; we can go to needle exchange banks and get all of this for free, along with good advice. It may not hurt to have some naloxone on hand as well, in case of overdose. If there are such places where you are, then this would be perfect for your friend.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

Unfortunately, with some people.. there is nothing you can do to make them care. They just don't give a shit. For others, it takes some serious health problems or destroying all their veins before they start to get a clue.

You're doing the right thing now.. just showing him the right away, pointing him in the right direction, and slowly trying to sway him to be safer. That's all you can do.

 

[RTrain]

I have to assume it is a very small demographic of the heroin abusing community that really do much in the lines of HR research. For instance, it seems like the first time most people shot up was set up by someone else and they had no idea what the person was doing, whether it was safe or not, but rather than do some research they just assumed the other person knew what they were doing. I myself have not taken that leap fortunately, but I have considered and read thoroughly about all the correct steps to take. I would not just go over my friend who IV's house and say "cook me up one and stick it in, I wanna try that shit out"... With the thoughts: 'of course he must know what he's doing, he's been doing it for 3 years and is still alive'. I know that is a bit off topic, but fact is people with that mindset just don't care. They over-simplify things like shooting drugs into their veins and, like what was already said, the reality doesn't hit until serious medical issues find them being operated on to save their lives.

I do agree the best chance is trying to convince him he will get higher and a better high by reading up on some BL threads and educating himself. But I feel for you and wonder if there is anyway you can get through this person who is in a clear tailspin of self despair mixed with drug abuse. It almost seems to be a point where the only thing that could save him is being locked in jail and being forced to sober up, good luck though.

He does use alone a lot. He also has some friends he'll shoot up with. They're nice guys but even more fucked up then him when it comes to this stuff. Where do I get all those IV supplies. I personally have never IV'd

Another thing I think I forgot to mention. A while back he was fiending when I was still on suboxone. He was about to go score on the street in a fucked up part of town, and I gave him a couple subs to hold him over during the craving. Since his tolerance was so low, the bupe got him fucked up. I don't know if this caused the relapse, but I'm just going to assume it did. So I feel responsible for him till he gets his shit together. At the time I felt like it was the right thing to do.

Well he was fiending and in those cases he is gonna get his hands on something one way or another. No doubt you made the right choice, steering him away from H and to just settle for the Subs. I have a buddy who thought he led me down the bad path again when we got oxys one night and he thought I'd been clean. In reality he didn't know, but I had been abusing Subs and poppy tea for a few weeks prior, when I was supposedly completely clean. He said to me, "I hope I am not starting you back on this shit" or something like that, but fact is I was already set on it, so I hope he doesn't blame himself at all.

You shouldn't feel responsible for that; In the drug world IME there are far few people trying to look out for each other as you did, I feel you did nothing wrong, and sure as hell shouldn't blame his relapse on yourself.

The problem there is you help people and they end up finding a way to use you. A few months ago I hooked a buddy up with some Subs, not for free but wanted barely more than what they cost me between Dr's visits and copay. Then he disappears. And I at the time wasn't in the position to be giving the things away, I had just started seeing a Dr and was out by the next appt. Its hard to keep helping people in the drug world, cause when it leaves a bad taste in you mouth like that it seems better to watch out for oneself.

 

[dopemegently]

It's the nature of beast; forget morals, forget principles- the active user has one thing only on his/her mind. They'll lie, steal, cheat- even to their own friends and family. It's not because they're terrible people; the're simply feeling a need more powerful than anybody can control. When some of these guys clean up, many of them are haunted by the shit they pulled. The addiction changes them; they're simply not the people they were.

 

[bukweat]

yeah well I wouldn't blame myself. He was looking to cop when you gave him the suboxone. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, but you can make him thirsty. You know him well enough to know his likes/dislikes. Try to surround him with what he valued. You may strike a spark.
I've seen the needle and the damage done.........................every junkies like a setting sun.(Neil Young) Don't let him take you down too.

 

[InHerOwnWrite]

Honestly after reading this i'm more worried about you. It's very easy to slide into an iv habit when you're frequently around a friend who has one, especially if you already know the harm reduction info. I applaud you for lookin out for your friend but don't forget to look after your own self.too.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

Honestly after reading this i'm more worried about you. It's very easy to slide into an iv habit when you're frequently around a friend who has one, especially if you already know the harm reduction info. I applaud you for lookin out for your friend but don't forget to look after your own self.too.

This is very good advice.

They say in the rooms that an addict will make you relapse before you get them clean.. well, the same can be said for situations like this. Surrounding yourself with this kind of drug use is very dangerous and unfortuantley, there's a greater probability of you picking up your friends habits and starting to use then him becoming safer.

So, while It's noble what you're trying to do.... you can't sacrifice your potential sobriety/sanity and risk ruining your entire life. People who don't want help can't really be helped.. I have seen this many many times, and been on both sides of the isle. The chances of "saving" or "helping" anybody, are slim.. but the chances of you being dragged down... high.

Be careful.

 

[bennyZA]

Honestly after reading this i'm more worried about you. It's very easy to slide into an iv habit when you're frequently around a friend who has one, especially if you already know the harm reduction info. I applaud you for lookin out for your friend but don't forget to look after your own self.too.

I know, I feel like I'm skating on thin ice. Like I said though, I'd rather see him alive and me an addict, than be at his funeral sober. One of the stupid ways I like to justify this is cause I think I'm 'over' with heroin. I live in a place where you can only get tar, but we used to have an an amazing hook for that east cost powder. Now he uses tar cause that connect is gone. So my stupid reasoning is cause I only had a few cravings when I started hanging out again and helping him out. The first couple times I was thinking how nice an opiate would be. I then remembered that tar is gross, even if it might be better I just do not like it very much. Too much of a hassle. It's pretty amazing how little my craving dominate. To be honest I'd rather fuck with the benzo
's he's got.

That's some HR thing right there. He loves benzos while nodding off, and that's how I died for a few minutes, so that's hard to see.

Btw, thank god I'm physically unable to IV myself, at all. I'm also scared as shit of needles. Even though he's in this stupid introspective, dark, apathetic, and lonely mood, he still would NEVER shoot me up. I'm so sick of this emo mood, but he just goes through it like once a year for a month, maybe month and a half. It's only been 3 weeks, so I hope he's done with his annoying ass mood. I'm actually kinda hoping that he snap out of it soon. He actually might listen to HR reason after that. He might actually sober up if I'm a little dickish about giving it up again. I'd totally hang with him and chill for as long as it takes to get clean. Shit, I'd set up a withdrawal kit if he was serious. Def cannot put pharmaceuticals in there, I'm not letting him taper unless he can handle it with the heroin himself. If I went to my old connect for oxy, I would use that shit pretty quick or buy some for myself.

I'm really serious when I say that I have absolutely no desire to start using heroin again, especially tar. I couldn't control myself if I got some oxy, but this illegal heroin appeals not.

 

[Crazyeighths]

Go visit the Case Studies (It could happen to YOU) and IV technique threads and print off some of the more disturbing reports. Things like IV complications, improperly mixed/filtered shots, microscopic pics of re-used needle points, etc. There is some disturbing shit in that thread and if he doesn't give a shit about HR after reading some of those studies, he never will.

 

[bennyZA]

I'm going to print the IV tech so he can do it clean, and I'm going to tell him I found a way to get him higher. I'm also going to get some narcan today so he and his friends have it around, just in case. Although he's been mostly using alone these last couple of days, and I think it might stay like that so I'll keep the narcan at his house so that I can use it if I need to.

Goddamn this shit sucks. I'm going to be honest, I'm getting real sick of his bullshit and his attitude, and his overblown emotions. He hasn't got angry with me, nor I him, but we've had a few moments. I want to hope that right now, in his deep introspective state, somewhere he appreciates what I'm doing. I'm obviously enabling him with my kindness and help, but I know he'd do it for me. Sometimes with the whinny emotions I just want to pick him up by the scruff of his neck, slap him a few times, reverse some door locks, give him a withdrawal kit and block the door with some other friends. I just know that it will probably not work. At the same time, he's my oldest friend and he's an awesome person! 1/2 the time we chill when I'm over, smoke weed, have an okay time. No way he's allowed to shoot up anywhere near me, but when he's fucked up it's not a problem. I don't drink, at all, so it's not to hard for me to be around fucked up people when I'm not. He usually passes out after getting high for awhile, I'll chill, make sure he's okay, watch TV, movie, whatever and then we chill. Although sometimes we'll just be sitting in chairs, doing nothing but staring at the wall, silent. Oh did, I mention he lives in one of the most fucked up parts of one of the most fucked up cities in the US. I'm used to living in the hood, but that just means I'm used to seeing fucked up shit on the street, and I've had guns in my face. Not being afraid of the hood, great skill to have

When I first created this thread, I thought that once the emo phase wears off he'll be willing to listen to some HR, and maybe quit again, cause he's a smart guy who see's reason. Sometimes this emo phase just happens, but IVing... we use to talk about how nasty it is, both of us. We would talk about never using needles. So I feel like something happened he's not telling me about.

He's really fucking lucky I'm such a good person, and he's also really fucking lucky I have a lot of free time right now.

A couple questions
- Where do I pick up all the the IV supplies?
- Do you think it might be a good idea to make a withdrawal kit and leave it there. He might see it, and maybe decided being clean is a good idea. I don't want him to use it as a crutch if he runs out of H, but that rarely happens.
- Are there any ways to try and get him to quit without being too much of dick, if he quit that would solve the HR problem right there.
- Does anyone have any advice for snapping him out of this lame emo mood. Before drugs, I never really cared when this phase occurred. It was kinda his thing, and girls LOVE IT. He gets laid so often when he's in this mood, so we never learned how to reverse the mood. We all thought it was pretty awesome. I can't believe how easy it is for him to get laid when he's all dark and mysterious.
- Any other advice about any of this stuff is GREATLY appreciated.

 

[BeenThereDoneIt]

That Dark Path & Keeping One's Humanity

Hate to say it, but my once closest friend (friends for 41 yrs & counting) won't listen to anything. It's like she wants to die, & only good genetics have kept her alive. Believe me when I say I tried everything. Now, when I'm in the area (aging parents & family & many dear friends bring me back to my roots home 5 out of 12 months), I get together with her once - which is very rarely pleasant, but I am her only friend left, and I still love her. But I can't help her. I finally had to accept that. And now and then I am rewarded with a glimpse of the BFF (long before that term was coined) she once was. And I will cry when she passes - which won't be long now - hope it's fast as there isn't enough drugs to take away the pain she may experience, having seen Hep C liver failure deaths way too many times. I will hot shot her if she asks me. But at the point your friend is at: almost anything besides being there when called & not letting him go thru any withdrawal that could kill him; lots of H is cut with xanex these days & if you're addicted to that, withdrawal can easily bring on seizures the like you've never seen, even with the worst coke shooter you've ever met (the kind that doesn't think they got off if they don't go out; the kind you don't leave alone in a bathroom for more than one minute & have removed your locks on said door for that reason.)

The only thing you could do - which might give him time to think - is get the courts to commit him. It's relatively easy. Just call Legal Aid. I'm not trying to be Debbie Downer here - but I have been in your shoes - more than once. Unfortunately, some can handle their business but others not. And there is a certain path that once taken is very hard to leave. I am fortunate that though I've done just as much as she, I never went down that dark path. Doesn't make me any better than those who have - just born luckier, I believe. Can't lose your humanity - eventually he will drag you down as he just sees you right now (most of the time anyway) as just someone else to use, or an enabling friend he's thankful to have but for the wrong reasons. No one has ever died on my watch & you can say the same. But the older I get, the less I know I know. My prayers are with you both. Peace.

 

[Psychedelic Jay]

It usually takes a fuck-up or two to get them to listen...

 

[bennyZA]

Hate to say it, but my once closest friend (friends for 41 yrs & counting) won't listen to anything. It's like she wants to die, & only good genetics have kept her alive. Believe me when I say I tried everything. Now, when I'm in the area (aging parents & family & many dear friends bring me back to my roots home 5 out of 12 months), I get together with her once - which is very rarely pleasant, but I am her only friend left, and I still love her. But I can't help her.

How long did it take to get to the point of no return with you old friend. We've only been using hard drugs together for 5 years I feel it's too early to split, I need him, he needs me. I'm guilty of doing similar stuff and he deals with me. It happens more frequently me helping him, but it's like 60/40 not 90/10. I want to be able to keep this relationship going because, knowing me, I could have the same mood and start doing as destructive stuff as he's doing and I know he would be there for me. That's part of the reason I'm watching out for him, I'm helping him through this so I know he'll help me the next time. Having a buddy that will watch your back without question is really useful in this drug game we are all a part of. He's the only person I can trust 100%. We've seen and done stuff together that I'd never tell anyone about, not even BL. No it's not sexual, you pervs.

I can't let him die, I just can't do it. I'm seeing him tomorrow to give him the narcan and IV supplies, the withdrawal kit I quickly made, as well as the IV tech. I'm going to have to have a real talk with him, I'm wondering what I'm going to say, how I'm going to say it, and how to keep him from hating me when I do say what I gotta say.

Def no 5150's on him. We've both had to deal with that bullshit, it sucks and it would irreversibly damage our relationship.

I also forogot to mention, he's the first person that found me when I nearly died, if he hadn't shown up out of the blue, I would most def died. Well I did, for a few minutes, but without him, I would have died, died. So I do theoretically owe him my life.

 

[neversickanymore]

Turn them on to Blue Light