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How can one get a GC/MS test on a substance sample?

2CEECS

2CEECS

Bluelighter
Joined
Mar 8, 2007
Messages
65
Location
Berkeley, CA
Hi all,

Apologies if ADD is not the right forum, though I assume not all BLers know what GC/MS is.

I'm sure you all recall the recent 2C-B-Fly incident...several samples of the material were sent off to labs for testing, and yielded very important results for our community. Is it possible for an average person to send an arbitrary substance sample in for GC/MS testing and not invite legal repercussions depending on the results?

The one potential service I've found is through ecstasydata.org:
http://ecstasydata.org/send_tablet.php
However, I'm not certain how detailed the results are (compared to some of the posted 2C-B-Fly results), and it's a bit expensive at $120 (I'd heard some comments about such testing around $80).

Thanks for any comments!
 
raver2008 said:
Ecstasydate will tell you what your sample is and thats about it.
Click to expand...

As I feared...I'm hoping to get a more detailed analysis, not only identifying the primary compound, but at least its purity. Ideally, a breakdown of what any impurities are would be great. I don't really want to drop $120 for "yes, that is /mostly/ what you thought it was", though I'd be willing to spend that for a better report.
 
the fundamental issue is all analysis including gcms is expensive, a gcms is approx 100K the database 15K the machine can only do 3-4 runs per hour. Competent Analysts time is also expensive.

if you want a full report along with identifying the major impurities and quantifying the amounts of material then that is going to cost, The going commercial rate is 500 usd plus. depending on the complexity of the sample Any commercial lab that charged 120 usd for a full analysis would be bankrupt in no time.

In the US analyzing anonymous samples of susopect controlled drugs is illegal and also specifically prohibited by the terms of the DEA licences, ask Shulgin.
other countries are more sensible in their rules, but there are still serious restrictions.

There are a few places that offer subsidised gcms analysis, including the spanish organisation, I don't think they have the ability to properly identify impurities or to properly quantify materials.
 
Thanks much for the extremely informative reply, vecktor. It's interesting that Ecstasydata uses the DEA lab (DDL), but I suppose going through them allows the anonymity necessary to remain legally safe in the US.

It seems like the best options for a detailed analysis are overseas, then, and I can't expect a cheap price unless a subsidized program is available. Has anyone here used such a service from the US?
 
^You're skeched out about sending a sample to a domestic lab but you have no fear of shipping a controlled substance overseas?
 
seep said:
you have no fear of shipping a controlled substance overseas?
Click to expand...

This definitely isn't true...and is why I'm asking for folks' experiences with this before sending a sample to a random overseas lab.

The mailing process itself can be fairly secure; just look at the high success rate of grey-market research chemical distribution. However, a means to actually get the results back, and not expressly violate the laws in the receiving country, are the really questionable bits.

In the name of harm reduction it's quite unfortunate that such testing services are not more widely known, so if some BLers know of any other viable services for this purpose, it could help others not willing to make a post.
 
CrookieMonster said:
does anyone know how long it will take for them to post the results?
Click to expand...

funny you should ask, because I had just written them this morning and this was the reply in regards to turnaround time:

"...the turnaround time is going very slowly at the moment, around a month, though it can be faster. The last two months, it has been 5 weeks for the longest, which is too slow."
 
GC/MS turnaround depends on the person, not the GC/MS. I can say from experience in college that running any sample in the GC/MS takes 30 minutes, max. Its the sample prep (it needs to be dilute and free of particles in order to not damage the GC column or MS detector), and analysis that takes time. GC's themselves cost only 5,000 dollars or so... its the MS, which tells you WHAT are the compounds, that's expensive (100,000 dollars per machine)

Also, its easier to determine the rough (and i stress rough, i can explain the details if you want) relative ratios of compounds in a sample, but its much harder to get exact masses in the starting material and exact ratios. This is due to the fact that every chemical ionizes differently in the MS, so you have to calibrate standards for each one, which takes time and usually isn't usually done for each compound. This also needs to be done frequently, as maintence of the GC/MS changes the parameters. Also, an extraction usually needs to be done, and some material can be lost/reacted, so that the ratio that goes into the GC/MS isn't really the ratio in the pill/sample.

so if you see a site that has relative ratios of "10:1:3 MDMA: caffeine: DXM" in a pill, those are actually pretty rough values (I'd be comfortable with at least a error bar of +/- 20% on each compound, so 10 could actually mean 8-12:1:3, etc). If you are just trying to identify a single compound, GC/MS will get you some answers.

HOWEVER, and i cannot stress this enough, if it is a NEW chemical, say, a RC that isn't familiar, it might not be in the GC/MS database, so all they see if a series of peaks which they can get a rough molecular weight from, and some molecular infomation like some types of atoms in there. Thats it. NO STRUCTURAL INFO is given by the machine unless you've inputted a known sample and told that machine that "that series of peaks in that ratio in the MS means compound 1". So you have to give your sample to someone who has done GC/MS's of similar compounds and has them in the database on the machine (or in a database on their computers that they can compare the spectra with).

In order to pay for that cost and the cost of upkeep of the machine (inert gas for the GC/maintenence costs/etc), it is reasonable for all GC/MS owners to charge for any use of their machine. Even time on shared machines at Universities are charged to the professors at around 10-50 dollars an hour at least.

Time = money. Science isn't magic, and GC/MS's dont give structural info unless its already known and inputted.

Basically you either find a reliable/knowledgeable site like ecstasy data to send it to, or find a very knowledgeable friend who has access to a GC/MS and knows how to use it and analyze the data properly (which is the hard part).
 
^ a decent experienced analyst can usually figure out most of the structure of an unknown from the fragments in a mass spectrum. however decent analysts are much rarer than database searching monkeys and much more expensive.
 
Another peculiar detail: If you like to assay a compound that is practically legal, but contains even traces of an illegal derivative (just as impurity, not as cut), well, then you're fucked!

I think the short answer to the opening question is that an informative GC/MS-test is not within the options of the common layperson. Price, complexity of the method and legal issues hamper this approach significantly.

- Murphy
 
fuck the law,

your hindered from verifying the safety of a product because the DEA says its unsafe!

circular logic works because circular logic works because.. . . . .
 
stormyweathers said:
fuck the law,

your hindered from verifying the safety of a product because the DEA says its unsafe!

circular logic works because circular logic works because.. . . . .
Click to expand...

As a strategy by the DEA it has worked very well, they can stand up an crow about how bad the the lack of quality control is in street drugs whilst completely blocking access to the analysis required for decent quality control.



a bit OT but fuck it..
Our side has been really dumb in fighting the war on drugs, the DEA and its ilk are not some genius master strategists yet they manage to wrong foot the pro control pro regulation people each and every time by the brute force application of power.

perhaps a proper campaign to outflank the prohibitionists could succeed, but the pro legalization campaign is hampered by the sheer numbers of morons (plenty of examples posting on this site) who use drugs irresponsibly and fuck it up for everyone.
 
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