Homosexuality

[JTNOLA5211]

Furthermore, I think it is a bit odd to begin with the question, "why are some people homosexual?" If we look to our very close cousins, the Bonobo Chimps, a better question would be, "why aren't the vast majority of humans rampantly bisexual?" Why don't we use sexual expression to bind each-other socially in a more casual and thorough way? I think the answer her lies in human culture.

ebola

Exactly.......

 

[zorn]

I call BS, ebola. First, you're right that variation continues to exist in traits not under selective pressure. But it's a bit hard to believe that sexual orientation of all things is not under a great deal of selective pressure!

Second, bonobos are interesting partly because their hypersexuality is so unusual. It's foolish to look for a explanation of the bonobo/human difference in human culture -- because most other animals, most other primates, even most other great apes aren't like that.

Chimps, gorillas, orangutangs aren't "not bisexual" because of chimpanzee/gorilla/orangutang culture!

Zorn, your points are well taken regarding the population control theory, though I don't think it could be ruled out altogether.

Thanks.

Another possible theory, imo, might be that homosexuality is a vestige from a time when organisms possessed the ability to reproduce with members of both sexes.

That was an *extremely* long time ago... sexual reproduction is about as old as animals themselves. Anyways a vestige by definition has no significant fitness cost, which is clearly not true of homosexuality.

Homosexuality seems to me to be at most a benign differentiation like baldness or left-handedness, so it seems a bit problematic to term homosexuality a "mistake", given the human predisposition to attempt to correct mistakes and engineer things that are ultimately at odds with the natural equilibrium state.

I mean a mistake only in biological/evolutionary terms -- certainly not morally. Clearly the reason we developed such a strong sex drive was to ensure that we have lots of sex and hence children. If the sex drive gets directed in a non-baby-making direction, that will ceteris paribus cause people to have less children. So the system which has evolved to control sex drive will try not to let this happen.

So either ceteris is not paribus -- the trait causing homosexuality has counterbalancing beneficial effects -- or else there is no trait in the first place -- none of the evolutionarily accessible designs result in 100% heterosexuality.

Come to think of it, studies have generally shown that the heritability of homosexuality is somewhere is around 50%. That is, genetics accounts for about half of the observed variation in sexual orientation. So both explanations must play some role.

 

[JTNOLA5211]

^^^Yea ur prob right about that specific species of ape but do u think generally bisexuality is only common in hypersexual species?

I mean i havent been to the zoo in a while to observe bisexual animals but i would think it is rather common.....

 

[zorn]

Sure, but I doubt it's generally much more common than it is among humans.

Humans are actually pretty unusual sexually because we have sex all the time, even when we can't reproduce, not because we have sex less commonly. In most primate species -- hell, most animals, I believe -- females display when they are fertile ("in heat") and sex generally only takes place then. It's an interesting question why human females don't do this...

 

[_high_life_]

both my little half pint dogs like going at it when they are in heat.i dont understand whats going on since they are both girls but one mounts the other as if it were a male and just starts giving it to the other little shit dog.they off, crazy humping each other.

maybe homosexuality is just an evolution in mankind since i dont think gays had as much publicity a hundred years ago.maybe humanity is growing to fast and somehow evolved into making gay people so they dont reproduce resulting in a slower birth rate.

personally i dont like what homos stand for but i dont feel any hostility towards them as individuals since they are just like any other person but have dirty things on the mind, well dirtyer things on the mind

maybe homos are just flawed in the head and have some sort of mental instability towards sexual activity.maybe they just never went through sex ed and arent sure if they gotta stick the dink in the pink or in the stink.

i dunno, getting shit on my stuff doesnt really appeal to me

 

[PottedMeat]

What the hell is that saying about living in glass houses and throwing stones or whatever?

Honestly, I am quite appalled at some of the comments that have been made above.

Obviously, many of you are walking through life with blinders on. Evolution...genetics...WTF?

There is no gay or straight or black, green, blue or white. There are human beings, none better than the next.

The "classification" of a group of individuals is precisely what rose Adolf Hitler to power.

Just be careful of "casting those stones", as someday those same stones may be aimed at you. Believe it!

 

[nothinginside]

i tend to think homosexuality is something that doesn't quite get the swing of life.. but it gets the swing of interpersonal communication.. a homosexual male is... well i don't understand..

I am 'straight'.. and i can say that a sexy male could get my attention.. and if that "sexy" male were to show enough interest.. i would spend more time with him..

but.. this is due to survival.. strong fits stronger...

attractive is usually something we associate as strong.. resiliant..

we attract to the curves.. or ridges that the other has..

overall though.. i cannot find love in males.. at least not that kind of love..

so i can't express what homosexuality is.. i'd like to say it's a phasal denial...

 

[Azuzil]

I am offended by _high_life_'s use of homos in a derogatory manner and empty rhetoric about "not liking what they stand for but not feeling hostility." May I ask you _high_life_ what the "homos" stand for? Equality? The freedom to love or fuck as they feel comfotable doing? I'm not sure if you thought it was cute or funny but it was derogatory and unkind.
I think the best theory talked about was how being gay is like being left handed. Both my sister and I are left-handed and no one in my family is left handed. So it is a genetic anomaly. We don't know why we are born that way, but trying to fight it makes one unhappy. Oddly enough the statistics are about the same for left-handedness and being non-hetero.
Peace,
Azuzil

 

[RadioCobain420]

^^^^Thank you Azuzil, those comments pissed me off as well.

First off, being a lesbian myself, the shit that homosexuals have to go through from childhood is very difficult to deal with. In all honesty, I sometimes wish I were "NORMAL" because it would cut some of the bullshit in half. All the terms and labels. Lesbians are either porno looking actresses (which would be okay with people) or manly looking women. Same with gay men, while yes, the majority that are seen in the media do have that "fairy" appeal, but these are stereotypes that people cannot look past.

Also the terms used are hurtful, seriously. Dyke, fairy, fag, lesbo, HOMO...all of those, its like we aren't even people because of one simple factor that is just one part in the personality. And not getting the "swing of life" come on man, seriously. If anything we get MORE about the swing of life. Like I said above, homosexuals do not CHOOSE to have the feelings that come with sexuality. I have distinct memories from childhood of knowing I was different. My friends all knew before I did. I grew up with a mother and father, they were both around, so you cannot blame it on my past. IN FACT, my dad is a Lutheran minister, so in all accord I should be abstaining from sex until marriage. But I am close to him, and my mom. I was never abused, raped or molested. Any excuse you can come up with doesn't work in my case, and if you ask most other gays/lesbians, they will tell you the same thing. Why are we looking for a scientific explanation, and just accept that it always has exhisted, and will continue to do so.

I think the people posting on here about how homosexuals are flawed in the head are extremely ignorant and immature. Frankly, I feel sorry for them because it definitely shows some insecurity on their part. To me, I picture someone who watches too much tv, and cannot comprehend that all the stereotypes they are exposed to, *gasp* aren't true! One of my good friends is a nurse, and she said that the babies born with mental disabilities, or physical disabilities are adopted the most by gay couples. God, that is so wrong isn't it?

Hell, my aunt is gay, so if there must be an explanation, I was born this way.

 

[goldenbrown]

The wrath of Homophobes is horrible, even if a person isn't gay, but resembles a Homosexual (actually grooms, has stylish and highly unique taste in clothes, shoes, hats, etc.) they will get the mental shit kicked out of them, like I did. I was always buying shoes, clothes, and other items that were different, expensive, and "pretty" I guess.

In 8th grade everyone would constantly make fun of me and how much of a "faggot" I was because I wore Abercrombie & Fitch. 4 years later those same people are all wearing Abercrombie, but still calling my clothing "faggot" and "gay" as I now wear Diesel, Energie, etc. etc. I would not mind killing any of those people who made my life hell for 9 years, for many more reasons besides calling me a faggot, too.

 

[Jimmy the Gun]

"females display when they are fertile. It's an interesting question why human females don't do this"
sniff sniff, live with 9 girls.

anyways, every behavior needs a phenotype (gene), to be expressed. being "gay" is often not black or white. being "kind of gay" increases reproduction potential. two "kind of gay" people might have a really gay child.

stretch = the childs environment might make them more intelligent than others, thusly spreading the prolferation of their "gay" genes through the population (through choosing mates with "gay' phenotypes).
memes-knowthis

*edit-radiocobain I think peopole want scientific reasons because they are unavoidable. IE god makes gay people = bullshit...god doesn't exits.

 

[DigitalDuality]

both my little half pint dogs like going at it when they are in heat.i dont understand whats going on since they are both girls but one mounts the other as if it were a male and just starts giving it to the other little shit dog.they off, crazy humping each other.

maybe homosexuality is just an evolution in mankind since i dont think gays had as much publicity a hundred years ago.maybe humanity is growing to fast and somehow evolved into making gay people so they dont reproduce resulting in a slower birth rate.

personally i dont like what homos stand for but i dont feel any hostility towards them as individuals since they are just like any other person but have dirty things on the mind, well dirtyer things on the mind

maybe homos are just flawed in the head and have some sort of mental instability towards sexual activity.maybe they just never went through sex ed and arent sure if they gotta stick the dink in the pink or in the stink.

i dunno, getting shit on my stuff doesnt really appeal to me

Actually _high life_ homosexual behaviour and how mass society percieves it has changed dramatically throughout history. Tribal boys used to sleep with men as practice for when they were married. Thinking of them as any different from anyone else, wasn't a concept known to them.

Greeks openly participated in homosexuality, and the concept of sin about it had not been developed in that society. That society also defined mother, wife, and whore (the latter not in a deragotory sense) as three seperate people, and incapable of being the same person. Our sense of sexuality stems from a Post- Roman world that spread and distorted christianity. That is where this society's lack of understanding and homophobia arrive from.

Who do you not like that homosexuals stand for? Loving each other? Sex? What's so different between them and you? Many heterosexual people have anal sex. I see you never really busted on lesbianism, but typically (as most western males tend to) busted on homosexual males.

But since you wanted to spew off that.. i have some compiled info from various gay marriage debates i think you would benefit from reading and just entertain this in your head for a minute...

Myth #1: Homosexuality is unnatural. In order to see what is natural, we must look to nature. In nature, every mammal has been observed taking part in same-sex activities, affection, and bonding. In some animals, homosexuality increases during times of overpopulation—sort of nature's birth control.

In nature, by the way, what is decidedly not natural is monogamy—especially for life. The only mammals who even sometimes mate for life are foxes, wolves, gibbons, beavers, dik-diks, coyotes, elephant shrews, and geese. Some animals mate for a season; most animals mate and move on.

I stuck to mammals for this example because the lower forms of life—while natural—are positively inhuman. You could say, for example, that the praying mantis "mates for life" only because, while the male shudders in orgasm, the female bites his head off. Then she eats him. The male praying mantis is an animal that comes and goes at the same time. Maybe that's why he's always praying. We all know how the black widow spider becomes a widow and why there is no such thing as a black widower (some animals get so hungry after sex).

Here's how Phyllis Lindstrom explained the birds and the bees—well, at least the bees—on The Mary Tyler Moore Show: "Did you know the male bee is nothing but the slave of the queen? And once the male bee has, how should I say, serviced the queen, the male dies. All in all, not a bad system."

Earthworms have male sexual organs on one end and female sexual organs on the other. They cannot, however, fertilize themselves. To mate, earthworms lie next to each other—how can I say this without becoming numerical?—head-to-toe and simultaneously play both male and female. Amoebas seem to have the best idea—the simplest, anyway: when they've had enough of themselves, they just divide. When one discusses what's natural, then, one has quite a range of behaviors to choose from.

From a purely human point of view, homosexual behavior has been recorded in every culture that kept detailed enough records. Sociologists and anthropologists have documented homosexual behavior in every country on earth—including in tribes that had no contact with outside human beings until the arrival of the anthropologists. Any behavior observed among all races, all peoples, all cultures, and in all countries throughout all recorded time must certainly be considered natural for humans.

"Homosexual activity occurs under some circumstances in probably all known human cultures and all mammalian species for which it has been studied." - WARREN J. GADPAILLE, M.D., Comprehensive Textbook of Psychiatry

The FABULOUS kingdom of GAY animals

BY SUSAN McCARTHY | The scientist gasps and drops the binoculars. A notebook falls from astonished hands. Graduate students mutter in alarm. Nobody wants to be the one to tell the granting agency what they're seeing.

A female ape wraps her legs around another female, "rubbing her own clitoris against her partner's while emitting screams of enjoyment." The researcher explains: It's a form of greeting behavior. Or reconciliation. Possibly food-exchange behavior. It's certainly not sex. Not lesbian sex. Not hot lesbian sex.

Six bighorn rams cluster, rubbing, nuzzling and mounting each other. "Aggressosexual behavior," the biologist explains. A way of establishing dominance.

A zoo penguin approaches another, bowing winsomely. The birds look identical and a zoogoer asks how to tell males and females apart. "We can tell by their behavior," a researcher explains. "Eric is courting Dora." A keeper arrives with news: Eric has laid an egg.

They've been keeping it from us: There are homosexual and bisexual animals, ranging from charismatic megafauna like mountain gorillas to cats, dogs and guinea pigs. There are transgendered animals, transvestite animals (who adopt the behavior of the other gender but don't have sex with their own), and animals who live in bisexual triads and quartets.

Bruce Bagemihl spent 10 years scouring the biological literature for data on alternative sexuality in animals to write "Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity," 768 pages about exactly what goes on at "South Park's" Big Gay Al's Big Gay Animal Sanctuary. The first section discusses animal sexuality in its many forms and the ways biologists have tried to explain it away. The second section, "A Wondrous Bestiary," describes unconventional sexuality in nearly 200 mammals and birds -- orangutans, whales, warthogs, fruit bats, chaffinches.

Bagemihl's dry style is obedient to the precepts of scientific writing. He explains why animals can be called homosexual or bisexual, but not gay, lesbian or queer, and he follows the rules -- though "homosexual" frightens some who prefer terms like male-only social interactions, multifemale associations, unisexuality, isosexuality or intrasexuality. (Fortunately, as a book reviewer, I am not bound by this rule. We're talking gay animals!) Yet the book is thrillingly dense with new ideas, and with scandalous animal anecdotes. In other words, an ideal bedside read.

Myth #4: Homosexuality is a choice. It has been established for some time that one's sexual orientation is part of the basic personality structure and formed before the age of two. The most recent studies, however, both behavioral and biological, indicate one's sexual orientation is genetic—something determined at conception. Whether it happens before birth or it happens by age two, the determination of sexual orientation can hardly be considered a choice. One can, of course, choose not to follow one's natural orientation, but this is not the sort of choice the proponents of this myth mean. They mean that gay people choose to be gay in the same way that they might sit down and choose which program to watch on television, which team to bet on in the Super Bowl, or whether or not they want pepperoni on their pizza.

The idea behind this myth is: a perfectly normal, well-adjusted heterosexual is sitting around one day and just decides to go gay, as one might decide to move to Antarctica or try to flush hockey pucks down the toilet. It is truly aberrant behavior, but it is his or her choice. Implied in this choice, of course, is a certain hostility to God, parents, society, and the American way. It's as though being gay is a pathological act of rebellion.

Gays don't choose to be gay; they discover they're gay. Like heterosexuals, they find themselves increasingly attracted (romantically as well as sexually) to a particular gender. The bisexuals find themselves attracted to both. (Even though, as Woody Allen says, "Bisexuality immediately doubles your chances for a date on Saturday night," discovering one's bisexuality must be more confusing than discovering one is primarily gay or straight.)

Like being left- or right-handed, there is no "choice" to one's sexual orientation. Allow me to give you an example. Clasp your hands together by interlocking your fingers. Is your right thumb on top or your left? Now switch your clasp, so that the other thumb is on top. Feel unnatural? Well, for half the population, this way is natural—it's the way they formed their clasp when first asked. Although one feels "normal" to you and one does not, when did you choose which was which? At what age? Who offered you the choice? The answer to these questions is also the answer to the question, "When do gays choose to be gay?"

Considering the many cultural prejudices, to discover one is (or might be) gay can be traumatic; one can be in denial for some time. With society screaming, "Stay in the closet!" and nature pleading, "Get out! Get out!" one does have the choice of which voice one listens to. Does one choose to use the courage to be oneself? In this way—and in this way only—is homosexuality a choice.

 

[Grim]

Obviously, many of you are walking through life with blinders on. Evolution...genetics...WTF?

Uhm, would you be saying then that evolution and genetics play no role in human society. We are all human, I agree but you can't ignore things like genetics and evolution. Everyone has differences and genetics play a big role in those differences otherwise we would all be the same. Therefore the IS such as thing gay, straight, black, white, tall, short, fat, skinny and a million other factors that make us different from another.

And if you try to avoid the obvious then you are the one walking with the blinders on.

I in no way have anything against gays or anyone of a different race, but you can't say that we are all the same. It's just a liberal PC bullshit that they are trying to feed you now. We need to learn to embrace other people's differences rather than saying that we are all the same.

 

[_high_life_]

sorry if i came off as an ass and might have used inapropriate wording but i didnt mean any offence, i thought that was clear when i said i didnt have anything against gays, i just dont find sexual intimacy with another guy at all appealing althought some do and thats fine with me.i dont really care about other people life choices since they arent mine.

Obviously, many of you are walking through life with blinders on. Evolution...genetics...WTF?

There is no gay or straight or black, green, blue or white. There are human beings, none better than the next.

how can you say there is no difference between human beings???there are incredible differences in culture, thinking, social systems and many more.i believe these differences are what makes humanity so amazing but it can be harmfull as well when ignorant judgement comes into play.

i agree with you that we are all the same but that is in a sense that we all have the same colored blood, the same body organs, the same mind structures and emotions.we are all the same people but we all have different values and im not the one to judge a person by his values.

i still think that homosexuality is a bit off but that doesnt mean i have any hate towards our differences, we are simply humans thats share different values.

again if i said anything offensive im sorry, i dont usually read over what i post.

 

[BilZ0r]

Yeah, I love people who try and argue that we are all born equal, its one of the most easily fallible statements ever.

Equal, as in the same? as in no differences? Different babies weight different amounts when they are born, hence the statement is false.

But then the person who says we are all born equal goes "no no, you're being silly, I mean equal in IMPORTANT ways" like, what? Babies get born with three 21 chromosomes... (downs syndrome), by definition, these babies aren't even of the same species as the rest of us.

 

[Geez-A]

Maybe because the human race is doing so well in terms of numbers not everyone is required to reproduce to ensure the survival of the species. Homosexuality therefore shouldnt be such a big deal as we are not exactly an endandered species are we?

 

[Jimmy the Gun]

every one starts out with equal worth imo

 

[DigitalDuality]

^
exactly. Equal as we should have equal rights. The whole foundation of equality, to me respectfully celebrates our diversity and allows people and systems to treat people the same regardless of skin color, gender (well romantic issues differ here depending on individual), nationality, etc..

We may be different, but in the end we are human beings. and there should be a set way of treating each other as human beings rather than slicing and dicing us up and creating inequalities in the ways we treat each other.

 

[WhyzFool]

Really, if you think about all the things in this life that we don't understand, its a wonder why someone else's sexuality becomes so important to us. Aren't there more important things to contemplate (world peace, hunger, death, our own existence) than who somebody else finds attractive?

If you want to understand homosexuals, as opposed to homosexuality, then you should read some books written by homosexuals, or maybe watch a movie, or talk to someone. Find out from the source...hearsay and speculation is worthless.

 

[ebola?]

>>I have read that homosexuals are men stuck in the "hero-worship" stage of psychosexual development. They try to find their male role model that they never had, and if they have sex with men at this stage, they condition (as sex that leads to orgasm is a self-reinforcing behavoir) their sexuallity towards other males.>>

Off of what type of theoretical framework is this based?
sounds bunk to me...

ebola