Homosexual adoption/ART

[FoxyKel]

Re: Interesting... but just a thought....

Heterosexual men were not born with the ability to produce children (on their own)

Heterosexual females were not born with the ability to produce children on their own either, SLM. We need sperm, which at some point in time must come from a male

 

[Strawberry_lovemuffin]

Re: Re: Interesting... but just a thought....

Heterosexual females were not born with the ability to produce children on their own either, SLM.

Yet

Fair point though... I did see that hole in my argument after writing it.

I was thinking in terms of an individual's maternal/paternal desire to have a child, which is possibly the same in both gay and straight people - and yet only straight people have the advantage of the socially accepted (and yes, okay, biologically 'normal') coupling configuration to achieve it. It just doesn't really seem fair.

Then again I guess you could argue nature isn't always 'fair'.

 

[Cpt.Caveman]

I think its a pretty shady area because its very important to have a male and female parent because its a necessity to learn how to relate to the same and opposite sex. If the child has only mum/mum or dad/dad then the child might have social problems later in life.

Just a thought

 

[beech]

Thats a good point Capt Caveman everyone needs role models of each gender. Role models however dont just exist in the home, they are present in the broader community. For example schools are making a conserted effort to recruit more male teachers in both primary and secondary schools. This is due to the fact that boys may often lack a male role model. This could be due to a number of reasons such as parents are separated and they live with their mum, they live with both folks but often the father is at work and spends less time with the children. There are a number of reasons but i dont think the lack of a role model of a particular gender in the home is reason enough for a gay couple to not be able to have children. If it was then in would be innapropriate that children are bought up in single parent homes.

Just a thought


Beech out

 

[up all night]

Originally posted by apollo
Nor is it comparable to someone who loses their legs, Thoth. Becuase that person was born with legs, they deserve legs and they're meant to have legs. So we do our best to replace them when they're lost in an accident.

So if someone is born without legs they shouldn't be given prosthetics?

And besides, you can't define everything by what is 'natural' or scientifically sound. What about parents who murder their own children? Or abuse them? Just because they can have children doesn't mean they should be allowed to raise them. The male/ female roles that we play are determined by our societal structure. Just because we require a female and a male to create a baby doesn't necessarily mean they're the best people to raise it.

I just don't see how a same sex couple would give a child any less than they would receive from a hetrosexual couple. In fact, the gay couple would probably love and cherish the child more considering the extra effort they had to go to. Anyone can get knocked up and spit out 16 kids whereas the adoption process is a long and difficult one in which the people are heavily scrutinised.

 

[Cpt.Caveman]

ah yeh true beech, didn't think of that. im a bit stooper tonight..didn't mean to sound like i oppose same sex parents. it was just a thought.

i think that the child can be raised just as well but they will definately have a few more ropes to learn about parents, relationships and reproduction with the first example given being same sex parents.

 

[up all night]

^ No different than a single parent household though.

 

[Cpt.Caveman]

^ No different than a single parent household though.

not really...

"mummy, where did i come from?"

"dad, why don't I have a mum?"

"how do you make babies? i though't you said that you need a man and a woman?"

all of these questions might be a little harder for a youngin to get their head around while growing up and will no doubt run into trouble with other kids giving them abuse about it in the schoolyard. its of course all possible but its just complicating things for the childs growing up...

 

[up all night]

Why can't those questions be explained to the child? Sure it may be harder to explain but I don't think it would have a negative effect. In fact they'd probably grow up to be more tolerant and accepting than most other children [generally speaking of course].

The child will probably get teased for having gay parents... but that's just because it's not the social norm and I don't see why that could be a reason to not let the couple adopt or access ART. There was a kid at my school who was teased mercilessly because his mum was extremely obese... doesn't mean she shouldn't have been allowed to have kids.

The whole problem with this situation is that our society still doesn't completely accept gay people. That being said I think there is progress being made and if we make decisions like allowing gay people to adopt in this generation than maybe the generations after it won't face the same problems. As it stands, kids are still learning that being gay isn't 'normal' and that gay people are somehow inferior because they don't have the same rights as straight people.

 

[Cpt.Caveman]

^^^ Thats a very good point actually upallnight!

I never opposed same sex parents, I'm just pointing out a complication involved. Actually I just had a thought that if same sex parents were accepted it might actually start a wave of people who are grown up to accept homosexuality and it should have a huge positive effect on the gay community as a whole in the future.

To tell you the truth when I was growing up as a teenager I was homophobic because of all the social conceptions of gay people but I've now got a number of friends who happen to be gay and they're awesome! All it took was to get to know one and any phobia went out the window. If the people around me I grew up with were more educated and knowledgable on homosexuality I might not have gone through a period of homophobia. Hmmmm....The government is so narrow minded. *sigh*

 

[onetwothreefour]

^^^ i agree: i think that to enforce real societal change things need to begin from the ground up (which in this case includes changing the views of children), and thus the further introduction of gay parents *would* clearly have a positive effect on our overall tolerance and well-being as a community. not to mention the benefit that it would have directly on the homosexual "community" (a silly word, but i can't think of anything better), after the years of bigotry and prejudice that they've had to experience at the hands of our rather backwards world.

and...any argument that says that gay people don't deserve children is inherently flawed - homosexuality has nothing to do with character, morality, responsibility (and accountability), or a person's status as a human being, and these are all that really count towards raising a child properly.

 

[Raz]

^^^ Thats a very good point actually upallnight!
To tell you the truth when I was growing up as a teenager I was homophobic because of all the social conceptions of gay people but I've now got a number of friends who happen to be gay and they're awesome! All it took was to get to know one and any phobia went out the window. If the people around me I grew up with were more educated and knowledgable on homosexuality I might not have gone through a period of homophobia. Hmmmm....The government is so narrow minded. *sigh*

That to me is probably one of the best arguments I can think of as to the actual benefits of gay couples having children. Because the more gay men and women who do it, the more a normal thing it becomes, and at some stage it won't even be an issue whether someone's parents are gay, straight, bi or whatever.

Yeah, kids will be asked why they don't have a mum, and they will want to know where they came from when they see pregnant women and realise they've never seen a pregnant man. But kids are nowhere near as fragile as this argument makes them out to be. They will accept it. My ex's kids knew that their mum had a boyfriend and their dad had a boyfriend, and they accepted it without question...because they hadn't had years of society drumming into their heads that it's wrong.

Sure, there are gay people who wouldn't make good parents. Hell, there are lots of us. I'm pretty sure I shouldn't be raising children full-time while I'm getting pissed half the week and fucking random strangers for the other half, but then I'd be very surprised if anyone actually gave me a child to raise. That's the thing....I think some people are approaching this issue as "should all gay men be given kids as of now?" and that isn't the question at all. The question is, "should gay couples be given the right to be judged on equal terms to straight couples when it comes to adoption?"

Don't panic guys, I'm pretty sure those of us who leave half-bottles of amyl scattered around our bedroom floor probably wouldn't meet the requirements of your average adoption agency anyway...it's the couple who've been together for the past ten years, been faithful to one another and don't do drugs/booze/club etc who would get the kids they want.

And hey, here's another idea....for all the talk of kids needing role models, how fucking awesome would it be for a kid growing up gay knowing that it's NORMAL, because one of his friends from school has gay parents that he can use as a role model..?

 

[onetwothreefour]

^^^

 

[Joellercoaster]

Raz... that's a brilliant thought. And it wouldn't surprise me to discover, at some level, that it's precisely what the conservatives in government are worried about. A lot of those people actually do think about societal change in the long term (weird to imagine, I know) and the idea of kids growing up gay and being happy about it would certainly keep them awake at night.

Just for what it's worth though - I'm a child of one gay parent, and had a conversation with her as an adult when she revealed her enormous relief that I hadn't ended up homosexual, brief experimentation and dalliances aside. She explained that it was purely out of concern for my happiness; it's a hard life as things stand.

So it would be even better if that happiness went both ways, and maybe it'll take an extra generation, but it will come: a time when gay children can grow up thinking that their sexuality is a positive thing because of their parents' example, and their parents can actually agree with them!

 

[kryalkastleE]

i think that as long as the child has a strong father and mother figure in their lives (if they are being brought up by two people of the same sex) that it is fine Even if the biological mother/father of the couples baby has nothing to do with the childs upbringing i think it is up to the parents to raise their child with a dominant male/female figure, just so they can learn a bit of everything from both...i know i learnt very different things from my mum and dad....i dont know if im getting across what i want to say, i'm totally FOR gay adoption BUT i think that a child needs both influences even if it comes from an "outside" source - a brother/friend/grandparent etc.

why should someones choice of who they love affect their ability to share that love and give it to someone that they want to care and love....?

 

[doofqueen]

not really...

"mummy, where did i come from?"

"dad, why don't I have a mum?"

"how do you make babies? i though't you said that you need a man and a woman?"

all of these questions might be a little harder for a youngin to get their head around while growing up and will no doubt run into trouble with other kids giving them abuse about it in the schoolyard. its of course all possible but its just complicating things for the childs growing up...

I dont think being a gay or a single parent really should matter about how you explain things to your children. When a child asks a question you give them your opinion and then point them to other sources to find their own information. It really shits me how some parents cover things up to their kids like they are twits or something. They are mini adults that just have more questions about the discovery of the world that they live in and people should give things to them straight...say for example it really shits me how people give their genital parts different names such as doodle and wee wee or whatever...what the hell is wrong with saying penis and vagina..thats what it is for gods sake 8( Just one example though...i have many more ...my son asked me what a condom was the other day ...oh god that was an interesting conversation

 

[mickeyjooce]

I got a little bit of a surprise when I broached this topic with my boyfriend the other night.

Seeing as we think similarly about most things, I would have thought he'd have the same opinions on gay marriage/child-rearing as I have, but apparently not. I just want to repeat the conversation we had to show you perhaps how many people innocently come to the wrong conclusion.

Me: "I think they should be allowed to get married, the government should just butt the fuck out".
Him: "Well, yeah..."
Me: "what? don't you agree?"
Him: "Kind of, I don't know"
Me: "What do you mean?"
Him: "Well that would mean they were allowed to have kids"
Me: "So?"
Him: "Well, if they adopt, why should they be allowed to adopt before a normal hetrosexual couple?"
Me: "But baby.... you're making the assumption that being gay is a choice . It's not a choice. You're born with it!"
Him: "Oh" ( he really hadn't considered that) "Yeah, I guess so."
Me: "So it's not like they're purposefully depriving some straight couple of first right to adoption through some selfish lifestyle choice... it's just the way their genetics are, they can't help it. Therefore why shouldn't they have just as many rights to kids? It's like saying disabled people shouldn't be given parking spaces, because all the 'normal' people then miss out on good parking. Well not really but you know what I'm saying?"
Him: "Yeah"

The point is I think many people still have in their minds that being gay is some kind of choice; like you wake up in the morning and go "Hey! I'd like to sleep with men, live in St. Kilda and wear tank tops!" and off you go. Then you go around crashing the straight party and wanting the same rights.

It isn't a choice, it's genetics. Therefore gay people should not be denied any rights straight people have... including the natural, human right to have a family.

Thank you Strawberry Love Muffin,

The point is that we didn't make a choice about this, we are attracted to who we are attracted to, you can change behaviour, but you can't change orientation. Strawberry has shown intelligence and compassion with her post.

Why should I not be allowed to have a child? Am I some sort of freak that isn't properly able to show the right values and morals to my child? I know that I would make a lot better parent that many heterosexual couples out there, just the same as many single parents are as well.

The government are trying to push people to have more kids, my suggestion, lets make better children who are more eduacted and accepting.

 

[doofqueen]

^^ absolutely!!