Hoffman: "At 400-500mics you reach saturation point"

[Ismene]

Read an interesting line by Albert Hoffman the other day - he said that the brain reaches saturation point on LSD at around 400-500mics.

 

[onepumpchump]

Did Hoffman ever do a fingerprint? It would be very interesting to see brain scans on different dosages to see how true this is, I have a feeling it is a little incorrect, but not having done any doses above 300ug myself I cant say..

Perhaps he's right and the things experienced at 1500ug trips are simply a case of the tripper knowing they've taken more Ponderings

 

[Flickering]

Not to disrespect the guy who discovered the substance to begin with, but I have a hard time believing the saturation point is that low. Unless he meant that after that, the effects still get stronger, but you require exponentially more acid to increase the effects past that point. I could believe that, but the placebo effect can only account for so much, and surely not the difference between 500ug and 1500ug.

 

[malakaix]

The most i've taken in a single dose was about 400ug of liquid.

I'm not sure i could handle much more, but if that is in fact the saturation point then i would not be surprised.

 

[effingcustie]

Yeah from what I've heard I don't think that's really true.... I can't say for sure though because I still haven't worked up the balls to go above 4-500 mics.

 

[Solipsis]

Seems silly to think that this is a black/white or yes/no matter. There are a lot of types of receptors LSD acts on, although granted only a few of them seem that relevant.

Also, is saturation not also a matter of significance cutoff point? Isn't it like an inverse algorithmic scale of activation vs. concentration?

Despite these two things one might say that you can still calculate a point of 'significant' saturation from this, even if the scope is only 5HT2A... But wouldn't these reasons at least account for the lack of consensus in say the 500-2000 mic region?

 

[alasdairm]

^ i tend to agree. aside, i see people often refer to their doses by their microgram weight. how are people measuring this commonly?

alasdair

 

[atara]

My understanding is that it's possible -- any free state / bound state equilibrium reaches saturation at some concentration (see also, e.g., "100% humidity") -- but you've only saturated the highest-affinity receptors (5-ht1a, 5-ht2a, 5-ht6). Above that point you start to see more binding to secondary targets (5-ht1d, 5-ht5a, 5-ht2c, less so 5-ht2b, 5-ht7 and D3) which continues to change the experience. Of course, given that most people who do thumbprints report that the experience is very intense, but not really "insightful", it's possible you move from psychedelic to simply intoxicating.

Also, most doses are probably overestimated -- in the literature, even 80 micrograms is a pretty significant experience, but many people report that they take 200 regularly.

 

[CrypticArc]

I think that it really depends on you personally what the saturation rate of LSD is in your brain. I know I certainly got higher on 600ug than 400, and it's not at all likely that it was a placebo.

 

[Black]

Also, most doses are probably overestimated -- in the literature, even 80 micrograms is a pretty significant experience, but many people report that they take 200 regularly.

agreed. half a tab that's been tested at 200µg is more than a significant experience ime and one and a half of those can be very intense. even when i factor in that i'm more sensitive than most, some of the the doses i read here in pd sound irresponsibly huge to me.

without access to quantitative testing most of us have no point of reference, so i'm not that surprised.

 

[wombat66]

Also, most doses are probably overestimated -- in the literature, even 80 micrograms is a pretty significant experience, but many people report that they take 200 regularly.

aside, i see people often refer to their doses by their microgram weight. how are people measuring this commonly?

...half a tab that's been tested at 200µg is more than a significant experience ime and one and a half of those can be very intense. even when i factor in that i'm more sensitive than most, some of the the doses i read here in pd sound irresponsibly huge to me.
without access to quantitative testing most of us have no point of reference, so i'm not that surprised.

I question how people here so insistently state their dosages in specific micrograms. Most people on this list have never seen unadulterated LSD in its pure crystalline form. Most people on this list don't have access to scales accurate in the sub-milligram range. LSD is unstable and starts decomposing when exposed to standard carrier materials such as blotter paper or tablet binders; so the dosage intended by the tableter or blotter layer is usually higher than what the consumer actually receives. Many people involved in the distribution of prohibited goods have a tendency for exaggeration. Even though Owsley originally measured his doses at 250ug, he later conceded (and agreed with Hofmann) that this was an overdose. And is there really a drug testing lab which accurately measures the amount of pure LSD already in a tablet (at a cost the normal consumer can bear)?

 

[alasdairm]

I question how people here so insistently state their dosages in specific micrograms.

hence my question.

alasdair

 

[effingcustie]

I definitely agree with these sentiments, but I do feel that after years of taking LSD from various sources, you can get a vague idea of about how many mics you are taking, factoring in how full of shit you believe various sources to be, how your experiences compare to reports of known doses, etc. It's hard to talk about with any certainty though, and I always take reported dosages on this board with a few grains of salt.

 

[TurkeyRanch]

Ismene, what is the most LSD you think you have taken?

I read a lot here, but seldom post. I see you saying this all the time. Have you ever taken a whole mg? Have you taken 2 mg?

1500 mics is different than 600 mics, very much so. I have eaten a milligram plus several times, (and yes, I know how much, I am not guessing at my doses, some people are pretty accurate with volumetric measures) and it is in no way similar to 600 mics.

 

[weirdling]

Ismene, what is the most LSD you think you have taken?

I read a lot here, but seldom post. I see you saying this all the time. Have you ever taken a whole mg? Have you taken 2 mg?

1500 mics is different than 600 mics, very much so. I have eaten a milligram plus several times, (and yes, I know how much, I am not guessing at my doses, some people are pretty accurate with volumetric measures) and it is in no way similar to 600 mics.

You have not really provided any useful information at all. If you've taken a precisely-measured 1.5mg dose of LSD, and can be absolutely sure that it really was 1.5mg, you're in a pretty good position to contribute to the "LSD saturation point" discussion, which has over the years become an extremely tiresome and repetitive affair. Merely asserting that you've taken a shit-load of LSD does not really get us anywhere. Tell us more about your experiences, both from the practical (dosing, etc.) and the subjective (trip reports) standpoint.

 

[TurkeyRanch]

I see people on this forum reporting similar doses to what I have taken, and people tend to disregard it. I am not sure why I am letting myself be drawn into this silly discussion again, probably because the whole "saturation point" is hooey and it drives me nuts to see so many obviously intelligent people buying into it.


Yes, I have taken 1.5 mg, several times. My largest dose was 3 mg. the 3 mg dose was originally 6 mg and change, weighed on a very expensive scale, put in water, and split between two people, myself being one of them.


onset- 5-10 min. Physical symptoms were tremors in major muscle groups (thighs, glutes, lower back), paresthesia of fingers/arms, lack of coordination, sensitivity to lights. Visually, activity started with onset of physical symptoms (or very close in time). Slight crawling of wood grains etc, developing within 45 min into a completely immersive psychedelic state that lasted about 7 hours. Return to body brought a +4 trip for about 2 hours, followed by a slow return to baseline (sorta) over the next 3-5 hours. Comparable to a heavy ayahuasca trip, but very different. More like smoked DMT in it's immersive quality really.


No, I didn't take a DOx or an nBOME, trust me I know. Yes it was LSD.


I usually only am compelled to post here about this issue, because it almost physically pains me that people believe in this obviously flawed "factoid". Ismene in particular seems to almost delight in making such statements, while it's obvious he hasn't taken such doses.


What do the people that espouse the "saturation point" dogma all have in common? None of them have taken high doses.

 

[TurkeyRanch]

You have not really provided any useful information at all. If you've taken a precisely-measured 1.5mg dose of LSD, and can be absolutely sure that it really was 1.5mg, you're in a pretty good position to contribute to the "LSD saturation point" discussion, which has over the years become an extremely tiresome and repetitive affair. Merely asserting that you've taken a shit-load of LSD does not really get us anywhere. Tell us more about your experiences, both from the practical (dosing, etc.) and the subjective (trip reports) standpoint.

i have posted similar information before, and basically nobody believes me, or people just ignore my statement, so I just shake my head and go back to browsing the forum.

 

[weirdling]

Thanks for the report, @TurkeyRanch. Out of curiosity - you mention a completely immersive psychedelic state, and a +4 state. Did the +4 state follow the immersive state? In other words - while in the immersive state, were you in command of your faculties at all? Or was this the case of being out cold in an "undefined" state for several hours, followed by a +4 trip when things settled down a bit and you regained the sense of self? I'm very curious about the timelines.

 

[TurkeyRanch]

Yes, immersive for the main body of the trip, and after I was back in my body, I was at a +4 for a few hours, gradually coming down. I was still extremely high, I was just able to talk, realize I was breathing, and be aware of "me" instead of being completely out of body.

Taking high doses seems to prolong the trip a bit, at least for me. I am baseline at 12 hours if I take say 200 mics, but seems like after 6-800 the duration is longer, mainly characterized by a similar duration plateau, but with a longer and slower comedown.

I am in agreement that most LSD is mic'ed way lower than advertised, 200 mics is a heavy dose for most, myself included. I personally like mine at 25 mics per drop, because you can always take more, and I enjoy the control.

I usually eat 150-300 mics for my routine doses, going out to shows, dancing, etc, and my duration always follows the typical LSD metric.

 

[TurkeyRanch]

No, I didn't take a DOx or an nBOME, trust me I know. Yes it was LSD.

And before someone asks, yes it was tested, but more to test our new test kit and to see what the reaction should look like with L, rather than to determine what the substance was.