• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | someguyontheinternet

Hey mods, and everyone with ecstasy questions

Hessel R.K.

Bluelighter
Joined
Jun 5, 2004
Messages
715
Location
Midwest
About 100% of the questions I see here regarding ecstacy could be answered by dancesafe's little slideshow. I'm not telling anyone their job, but don't you guys think that stickyifying this link would clarify a lot of shit for everyone, and reduce clutter?

At the very least it is necessary education for those who take E!
:D
 
oh crap

I guess I should have known that it would have been common knowledge if it was worth anything. No sense spreading misinformation.

Not deleting... It gets pretty interesting once bilzor starts explaning shit.
 
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yeah, even when we at Dancesafe refer people to the slideshow, we mention that it's simplistic and that certain parts of it (like the stuff about prozac and neurotoxicity) is wildly out of date. The only reason it's still up is because it helps novices understand what we mean when we discuss things like reuptake inhibition and neuroreceptor downregulation. The pharmacology sections of William White's DXM FAQ might be a slightly better reference for the pharmacology novice, though.
 
What in the slideshow is wrong? I learned my first bit of brain chemistry from that and don't want to spread misinformation.
 
Well, I don't want to get all anal, and rip up every little thing, slide 11 is where things start to get rock; in regards to serotonin receptor binding "a critical amount of receptor binding occurs then the axon will fire, causing the release of other neurotransmitters into other synapses", thats not the case at all. You could completely saturate your average cortical pyramidal cell with serotonin and it would fire at all, in fact, it would probably become hyperpolarised, and be less likely to fire.

" When you are happy, it is likely that you have more serotonin receptors activated" <--Huh?

It gives the impression that 5-HTP binds to a 'decarboxylase' to become serotonin.

In regards to receptor downregulation "One theory says they do this in order to avoid getting damaged from over-stimulation" Whos theory, no theory I've ever heard, it doesn't make sense.

" Notice that the prozac fits pefectly into the transporter. Researchers refer to this as "affinity" and say that prozac has a greater affinity for the uptake transporter than other things in the synapse, including serotonin. In other words, Prozac will bind to the transporter first" Not the case. Higher affinity means you need less drug to get higher binding, nothing to do with "first", the impotant this is that the prozac is at high enough concentration to compete for the transporter. And prozac DOESN'T even have higher affinity than serotonin at the transporter.

"Only the animals who got the Prozac during the first six hours showed no damage." No, animals at the 6 hours mark showed marked damage, it was just that it was just significantly different from the untreated animals, i.e. 6 hours was the longest gap they could use and still see any protection.

Their explanation of how MDMA release serotonin is wrong. Slide 21 shows an ancient theory, then slide 21-b shows a newer, but still old theory. Amphetamines probably cause release by stimulating the enzyme Protein kinase C (PKC) to add some phosphate molecules (phosphorylate) to the serotonin/dopamine/noradrenaline transporter, cause it to increase its rate of outward transport.

Oh, and somewhere along the lines they say, MAO-B mediated dopamine degredation directly liberates hydrogen peroxide, which I strongly doubt.

I could go on and be more picky, but those are the ones that stuck out.
 
Yes, the errors in the slideshow have been explained on the Dancesafe E-board ad nauseam. That dopamine oxidation creates free radicals that damage the serotonin neurons has been refuted, I'm not sure anyone believed it for a second, but at the time there weren't any other theories. The main problem is simply that it hasn't been updated in a few years. Don't ask me why. At the time it was made, that slideshow was pretty much cutting-edge compared to many of its contemporaries. Unfortunately, new data and retractions of previous evidence has rendered the slideshow obsolete. Ignore it.
 
There was a move to update it, I know a bunch of people got emails and PMs about what needs to be changed. But nothing seems to have happened.
 
I was keen to update it, and pm'd people here and at DS regarding it.

The only possible route forward is a total rewrite rather than an update.

Can we do a Wiki or something, i am very much in favour of a collaborative effort.
 
Well I wanted someone (I'm looking at theDEA.org), to do a special chapter on MDMA induced neurotoxicity in the erowid.org neuropharmacology textbook I've been trying to get people to write.
 
Yup, that's a pretty solid redo of the standard ways to block MDMA-mediated neurotoxicity... though they forgot antioxidants and hypothermia...

Meanwhile, you've obviously got access to pubmed... just type "MDMA neurotoxicity" and get your research on.
 
I have acces to many online journals as well (through the Wageningen UR Library) but I don't know where to look !! there are SO many. Some of your ref's would be helpfull though.
 
BilzOr --

Your MAO-B dopamine degradation results in hydrogen peroxide, ammonia and an aldehyde, so that part of the slide show might be pretty close to the truth.
 
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