• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | someguyontheinternet

Hey I thought the grey matter of ADD could chew on this....

Long rant coming through!

Think about synaptic function and an addict.. so many synaptic pathways lead to use.. and so many other portions of the brain have been altered or damaged..

Oprah pulled the same trick with the brain scans and MDMA, here's the TheDEA article on it (not affiliated with Us Government). Also, check out this paper that suggests that you can make a dead salmon show activity in their brain; especially with absolutely no source for those images they are essentially useless. Who is to say the "normal subject" and the "cocaine abuser" have different baseline metabolisms anyway? Altered glucose use in the brain does not imply changes in observed cognitive performance - just different amounts of energy demand.

Cocaine-experienced monkeys required significantly more trials and committed more errors on reversal learning and multidimensional discriminations, compared with control animals. Cocaine-naive, but not cocaine-experienced, monkeys showed greater metabolic rates of glucose utilization during a multidimensional discrimination task in the caudate nucleus, hippocampus, anterior and posterior cingulate, and regions associated with attention, error detection, memory, and reward. Using a delayed match-to-sample task, there were no differences in baseline working memory performance between groups. High-dose cocaine self-administration disrupted delayed match-to-sample performance but tolerance developed. Acute abstinence from cocaine did not affect performance, but by day 30 of abstinence, accuracy increased significantly, while performance of cocaine-naive monkeys was unchanged.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22672928

When changes are observed, it's not global brain levels that are measured but rather specific areas, because that's a more meaningful metric.
Although the time-dependent fall in metabolic activity suggests that the higher metabolic activity observed less than a week after cocaine withdrawal may represent a nonspecific expression of drug withdrawal, the selectivity of changes in glucose metabolism for the basal ganglia and for the orbitofrontal cortex suggests that the regional metabolic changes seen in cocaine abusers during detoxification are related to changes in brain dopamine activity.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2018164

This is absolute generalisation. Addiction is not always co-incident with brain damage, and likewise "brain damage" is not an inevitable, eventual effect of drug use or addiction. It's also very hard to quantify. What constitutes 'damage'?
Damage at the chemical or cell level - Cell death? Decreased levels of glucose metabolism? Altered gross physical CT/MRI?
Damage at the circuit level - Reduced dopamine receptor density? Altered levels of receptor expression? Restructuring of cortical circuits?
Damage at the system level - Abnormal cognitive symptoms, loss of motor functionality, amnesia?

And if it is physical damage - what sort of 'supplements' can we take to restore dead cells? None, to my knowledge. You can really only grow new ones, and that still takes quite a lot of effort to do by hand.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that drugs don't cause damage to the brain. In many cases they do cause permanent damage - overdose, overheating, allergic reactions and so on. My argument has always been, however, that brain damage is very difficult to self-diagnose - as opposed to cognitive impairment, which is easily evident. (Cognitive impairment isn't damage - if I am sleepy in the morning because I didn't rest well, even though I may feel like hell I know it's neither permanent nor harmful.) It is even harder to conclusively link brain damage to a generalized notion of "drug abuse" for a few reasons:
1. The brain can't really observe its own state very well. As an entity, you don't percieve "serotonin levels" or "dopamine receptor occupancy". You measure senses, moods and emotions, which are far more than a concentration of a brain chemical. The brain also lacks any sort of perception of its own status - there are a significant number of people who go into the doctor for presumed headaches or lethargy and it is eventually discovered they have either had a stroke weeks ago or a humongous brain tumor present for some time, because the symptoms can be so vague and diffuse even in acute damage, and the human brain has a truly amazing capacity for redundancy. Indeed, traumatic brain injuries can heal an amazing amount in 1-2 years, and even quicker if you keep in shape and return to your daily life as quickly as possible. (There's an Erowid paper that suggests meth addicts start feeling better after about a year of meth abstinence below).
Contrarily there are many people who take a single dose of a hallucinogen, have an extraordinarily frightening experience, and feel they must have incurred physical damage - drug induced PTSD as it were. There are also hypochondriacs of all sorts. The prevailing social more that "drug use is bad both morally and physically" does not help treatment prognosis. Imagine if you had to seek treatment for transmissible STIs you got from your unmarried girlfriend from someone from a culture that frowns on sex outside of marriage, compared to getting treatment from someone who doesn't judge you. People ashamed of their condition have a tendency to avoid treatment and may be less enthusiastic overall about treatment. It also doesn't help that some recovering addicts don't have much money - of course, trying to feel better kicking heroin on rice and beans is harder than if you're a millionaire with a private chef.

2. Dependence does not imply damaging levels of use, nor does it imply the user lives the "lifestyle of an addict". President Obama "used maybe a little blow" (as Penn Jilette said, only people who have a serious problem use "maybe a little blow"...) but look at him - he was elected and won a Nobel Peace prize. Plenty of successful people have been heroin chippers, and I daresay that even amphetamines have been used without too much complaint of "damage" prior to their criminalization and resulting unregulated usage. We also know that other euphoriants like THC, nicotine, the hallucinogens (psilocin, LSD, mescaline) and of course many naturally pleasurable activities aren't "damaging" to the brain either.

Regarding long-term effects on cognitive performance and brain-imaging measures, statistically significant differences between methamphetamine users and control participants have been observed on a minority of measures. More importantly, however, the clinical significance of these findings may be limited because cognitive functioning overwhelmingly falls within the normal range when compared against normative data. In spite of these observations, there seems to be a propensity to interpret any cognitive and/or brain difference(s) as a clinically significant abnormality. The implications of this situation are multiple, with consequences for scientific research, substance-abuse treatment, and public policy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22089317

3. Many drugs mess with reward in a bad way. The human psyche uses pleasure as a means of reward for actions that ensure genetic propagation (not getting killed, eating nutrient-rich food, having sexytimes with your lady/guy friend) and generally wants to maintain that state. Conversely when you feel emotionally low, your psyche recognizes that as a cue to change your environment or activity. If you're crashing off euphoriant drugs it can seem like you're all fucked up and doing nothing right (especially if you're being told that you are broken by the media and society), and you need "supplements" to fix your life, especially once you've tasted limitless euphoria pretty much "on tap". It's tempting to believe that there's a way to fix your brokenness quickly, that there's some golden parachute - but there often isn't.

Also, calling nootropics garbage and saying they have only niche effects? Maybe if you aren't dosing right.

4. Most humans are poor judges of cognitive performance, and it is rare to see people running double-blind trials. The weight loss products you see at late night on cable TV, the "woman-slayer human 10X pheromones", penis extending pills, and the like all rely on this principle. A lot of crap gets sold and people attribute the results of their hard work to the pills, when it was little more than active placebo. Curiously, placebo effect even works if people know they're taking placebos. The human mind is beautiful and scary at the same time.

Wiki said:
A placebo described as a muscle relaxant will cause muscle relaxation and, if described as the opposite, muscle tension. A placebo presented as a stimulant will have this effect on heart rhythm, and blood pressure, but, when administered as a depressant, the opposite effect. The perceived consumption of caffeine has been reported to cause similar effects even when decaffeinated coffee is consumed, although a 2003 study found only limited support for this. Placebos represented as alcohol can cause intoxication and sensorimotor impairment. Perceived ergogenic aids can increase endurance, speed and weight-lifting ability, leading to the question of whether placebos should be allowed in sport competition. Placebos can help smokers quit. Perceived allergens that are not truly allergenic can cause allergies. Interventions such as psychotherapy can have placebo effects.

So if you take a drug that's labeled as a "cognitive enhancer", even if it doesn't actually do anything, you might notice positive effects. It's seen all the time in the medical literature. That's why the question is usually, is the drug better than placebo? rather than is the drug better than no treatment at all?

just looking for chemical ways of facilitating the neural regeneration and plasticity in the quickest way possible, in an attempt to make the chances of an addicts recovery greater, the time period of recovery shorter, and their journey on this path more enjoyable.

The amount of value you get for your dollar on micronutrients is going to be minor at best compared to the major factors of diet, exercise, and lifestyle. The amount of markup on encapsulated antioxidants, nutrients, vitamins, etc can get crazy sometimes. Your money is almost certainly spent better elsewhere; if you eat a healthy diet you do not need many of these "supplements" (your body excretes them), and likewise, no supplement or combination of supplements will make it so that recovery is effortless and happens even if you're eating junk food.
Maybe I just have a needlessly holistic view of recovery from addiction. What I do know is that if you suffer a broken bone, or a stroke, or the flu - staying bedridden and focusing on which drugs to take will generally extend your recovery compared to trying to resume your daily life. Given that drug use, especially hedonistic and out-of-control drug use is associated with very poor life choices continued for quite some time, reversing those changes is a good place to start. For increasing cerebrovascular flow and brain function, regular aerobic exercise and full utilization of the brain's mental capacity are the way to go. There's all sorts of ways to do this - it doesn't have to be going to the gym and doing sudoku puzzles. Team sports, sex, physical day labor, cooking, video games, even going traveling somewhere you've never been before. The money you intend to spend on amino acids and antioxidants would be best spent on fresh seasonal vegetables and a pair of running shoes.

So to summarize, the best things you can do if you have a drug problem that you need to recover from are
1. Stop using drugs and get them out of your life. Studies show the sooner you stop using, and the longer you stay clean, the better your prognosis is. This likely extends to *all* drugs.

Craving for addictive drugs may predict relapse in abstinent addicts. To assess relationships between craving and use, we examined changes in craving for methamphetamine (MA) in a sample of 865 outpatients in a multisite 16-week MA-treatment study. Craving was assessed on a 0-100 scale, and MA use was assessed by self-report and confirmed by urinalysis. We hypothesized that the magnitude of craving would decline (decay) with increased time of abstinence, and that decay would be greater for more frequent MA users, and greater for intravenous (IV) users and smokers as compared to those who used MA intranasally. Craving declined significantly as the number of weeks of consecutive abstinence increased. Rate of decay was greater for IV users and smokers as compared to both intranasal users and oral users, but not for more frequent users of MA. Rate of decay was independent of age, gender, and race/ethnicity. The trajectory to 0 (no) craving was 1 week shorter for females than males because females had significantly lower pretreatment craving scores compared to males. This study confirms that the sooner MA-dependent people are able to quit using and the longer that they are able to stay abstinent, the more likely it is that their craving for MA will decrease over time. 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20958846

2. Confront the reason you use drugs. Is it self-medication for pain? Investigate the cause and seek alternate non-narcotic therapies. Medication for anxiety? See a therapist or counselor, or talk to a friend, co-worker, or relative about what's worrying you. Dependence (fear of withdrawal)? Most drugs can be tapered down in dose gradually. Boredom? Try activities you haven't tried before., travel somewhere new, or try to make a new friend. If it's out-of-contol hedonism, maybe you need another, less self-destructive outlet instead? Maybe you just have to learn moderation and change which drugs you use. The basic point is, don't add more drugs to a drug problem.

3. Eat healthy. Don't take individual nutrients if you can help it - instead look for non-synthetic, plant or animal based dietary sources. Limit yourself to fish oil and multivitamins if you need them - get dietary sources of antioxidants and vitamins instead. (Dark/colored fruit and vegetables, meats, fish, nuts, eggs etc). And eat a variety of things too. Preferably, try to cook for yourself rather than eating out. Shopping and cooking are good mental exercises, take up time otherwise used for drugs, and can help save you money and fell better at the same time. Plus, the ladies/guys love a guy/lady who can cook a delicious meal.

4. Live healthy. Get the natural dopamine, serotonin, and endorphins flowing again. Try as much as possible to keep moving and active until bedtime. Think positively and don't feel bad for yourself - you will get better with time. The human body recovers from amazing circumstances - if you can post on Bluelight you probably have enough physical capacity in you to recover.
 
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Your Brain on Drugs: Imaging of Drug-related Changes in the Central Nervous System
Benita Tamrazi, MD and Jeevak Almast, MD
From the Department of Imaging Sciences, University of Rochester Medical Center, 601 Elmwood Ave, PO Box 648, Rochester, NY 14642.
Received May 11, 2011.
Revision requested June 20, 2011.
Revision received January 8, 2012.
Accepted January 24, 2012.

Imaging the Addicted Human Brain
Joanna S. Fowler, Ph.D., Nora D. Volkow, M.D., [...], and Linda Chang, M.D.
2007

The addicted human brain viewed in the light of imaging studies:
brain circuits andtreatment strategies

Nora D. Volkowa,b,c Joanna S. Fowler d Gene-Jack Wang c
Received18 May 2004; receivedin revisedform 12 July 2004; accepted21 July 2004

a Office of the Director, National Institute on Drug Abuse, 6001 Executive Boulevard, Room5274, MSC 9581, Bethesda, MD 20892, USA

b National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, Bethesda, MD 20892, USA

c Medical Department, Brookhaven National Laboratory, Upton, New York 11973, USA

d Chemistry Department, Brookhaven National Laboratory, Upton, New York 11973, USA

That is a large rant and i will have to find the time to properly dissect, ingest, add to what i agree with and and counter anything I do not agree with.. but I have provided some pretty reliable links for you to check out. I love healthy debate and thanks for all the time you are putting into this sekio!

EDIT: one thing i noticed from the dea argument was that all the cites where from like 2000 and before.. the ones i posted are a little latter on I think 04. 07. and 12 in no particular order but this is only something to consider and I will make time to look at this in earnest.
 
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How about the EPA/DHA in fish oil? Some knowledgable members over at M&M suggest 7-8 grams of fish oil per day.

Also, what about Choline Bitartrate?

Alpha-Lipoic acid?

And whilst creating this cerebral masterpiece, why not protect it with Magnesium (not oxide) and Selenium?

I've also had a lot of success cycling with Noopept and either Sunifiram or Coluracetam co-administered with N-Acetyl-Tyrsine or the L-DOPA from Mucuna pruriens extracts (20% catecholamines including 15% L-Dopa).

Some 5-HTP and nightly melatonin cap it off well...

Great suggestions in this thread, by the way!
 
What about nootripics like Piracetam with Choline? If I remember they did something with NMDA, not quite sure.

Aha, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8234409

Subchronic treatment of aged mice with piracetam (500 mg/kg p.o. for 14 days) elevates N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor density by about 20% and normalizes the enhanced affinity of L-glutamate for the NMDA receptor. Since deficits at the level of the NMDA receptor might be one of the mechanisms underlying age-associated cognitive impairment, the effects reported for piracetam may be relevant for the cognition-enhancing properties of this drug.
 
^That would make sense... I believe glutamate works in conjunction with the NMDA receptors and a spike in receptor density, to me, creates a situation whereby the excitatory glutamate is more easily able to proliferate, thus explaining the cognitive enhancing properties of piracetam.

*cue ADD sharks to attack my ignorance, now =D*
 
Here's a pretty awesome & comprehensive website I located for my own purposes but thought I'd do well to share it with all of you!


Thanks Vaya. This is interesting.. I have seen people advocating fasting to treat HPPD. I have seen it claimed that it can improve HPPD and also that a HPPD suffer received almost full cessation of their symptoms while in the fast, only to have them return once they resumed eating.
 
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I don't believe most substances that aren't given to you by a doctor are precise enough, or maybe an addict isn't precise enough, to self diagnose intricate neurology. Since the dopamine, or reward system is usually depleted, addicts try to find ways to "add dopamine", or "add serotonin", my gf is a psychiatrist, she says the field knows maybe about 10% about how neurotransmitters work, all of them I mean. We know more about some than others. You can take certain things to help you, but you can exercise, you can eat healthy, you can work, having money helps(I know that for a fact), but this is still a debate. Parts of the brain can recover, liver can, most of the body can really, but liver and brain can reach homeostasis eventually. Thats why websites like these are great, Those 5 points that guy made, about the brain being able to recover, its all relative, but he is right. You are also right, the future of medicine will allow us to manipulate psychology, we just don't know enough at the moment. I mean, if we(me, you, anyone here) REALLY knew how addiction, or quitting works, wouldn't this site be down by now? Addiction is something I think we can solve, but not using traditional psychology, or college teachers. I like the 2 system theory, freud theory, but there is no definite way to quit "impulse" because unfortunately, we are hard wired with it to survive. Anyways, Love the website. Best source for quitting, currently.
 
A lot of addicts don't want to be "cured" I don't think we'll ever get past that hurdle without some sort of "forcible re-education" (god forbid).

I'm glad that the site has helped you with quitting, but as a harm reduction website Bluelight has a lot more to offer drug users than helping them achieve abstinence (though we're getting better at that every day). We also help people learn how to interact with drugs safely and rationally, even if they don't want to reduce their use. So even if we REALLY know how addiction works sometime in the future I still think sites like this can serve an important role.
 
Avoid that "nootropic" garbage. MAO-B selective inhibitors are fairly safe but really you're screwing with a system that's already damaged in addiction, excessive DA receptor stimulation is more likely to cause severe compulsive behavior than anyone seems to think.

I have to Agree with Epsilon Alpha, stick with the basics(lol, whatever that is by bluelight standards) until you reach a baseline mental state. I've taken several noorotropics (piracetam,etc) and had success with them only when I was "already in a good mental state" or had to focus to study for a long period of time.

Many clinicians believe nutrients can only be absorbed from fresh fruits/veggies. Good diet and Exercise...then start supplement experiments.
 
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Abstract
Voluntary physical activity and exercise training can favorably influence brain plasticity by facilitating neurogenerative, neuroadaptive, and neuroprotective processes. At least some of the processes are mediated by neurotrophic factors. Motor skill training and regular exercise enhance executive functions of cognition and some types of learning, including motor learning in the spinal cord. These adaptations in the central nervous system have implications for the prevention and treatment of obesity, cancer, depression, the decline in cognition associated with aging, and neurological disorders such as Parkinson's disease, Alzheimer's dementia, ischemic stroke, and head and spinal cord injury. Chronic voluntary physical activity also attenuates neural responses to stress in brain circuits responsible for regulating peripheral sympathetic activity, suggesting constraint on sympathetic responses to stress that could plausibly contribute to reductions in clinical disorders such as hypertension, heart failure, oxidative stress, and suppression of immunity. Mechanisms explaining these adaptations are not as yet known, but metabolic and neurochemical pathways among skeletal muscle, the spinal cord, and the brain offer plausible, testable mechanisms that might help explain effects of physical activity and exercise on the central nervous system.
source:Neurobiology of Exercise

Exercise and Brain Neurotransmission
 
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Neversick- I wish I had found your posts on Paws 3 months ago. The only amino acid you missed was DLPA, check it out and see what you think. Also check out Wellbutin, it is a norepinephrine and dopamine reuptake inhibitor used for depression but has made a big diference in my Paws. You should make a sticky on Paws its the biggest reason for relapse and most people don't understand what is wrong with them. When I got off methadone in 84 I stayed in my parents basement for 2 years wanting to kill myself. I stayed clean for 24 years before a bad accident that I* had to take opiates and got hooked again and lost everything.
 
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Detoxing off methadone probably causes the worst paws. What are my mu-opiate recepters wanting that causes paws?
 
Lol how could I forget! Curcumin has a lot of promise if you can get past it's abysmal bioavailability (read: expensive propitiory formulations). I did the math and it turns out that the doses people were doing for the amphetamine tolerance trial runs were generally way too low. You need like 2-3g a day if its not in a more bioavailable formulation.

You know piperine increases the BA of curcumin by upwards of 2000%, and it isn't expensive :)

I'm sure I've read other ways to increase the BA all at home, but can't recall them right now.

For the record, I don't like anything that hasn't been conclusively proven to work. As Sekio said, we compare drugs to placebo, not to nothing at all. Most of the things mentioned here have little, if any evidence for they're effectiveness.(melatonin!)

I agree that lifestyle changes are far more important than random supplements that *might* help.

Just my 2 pence...
 
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^ yeah I'd say just keep it simple and stick with what works. We certainly need nutrients, vitamins etc.

Eat hea
 
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