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Heterodox approaches to Christian scripture
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Gnostic Bishop
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I to am a esoteric ecumenist but cannot ignore a myth that Christians have been using forever to discriminate against women and deny them equality and that it why I speak against it when I can.
Those of low morals will not do so and allow that evil to grow.
Regards
DL
Gnostic Bishop
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Gnostic Bishop
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As a Gnostic Christian, I see all Gods and scriptures as myths. I do not hate any God but just recognize that the bible God has satanic morals that his followers call good.
They end up embracing barbaric human sacrifice and the notion that they should profit from the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty.
That is what I hate as it creates immoral people.
Here is the logic I give them.
How will you get yourselfinto heaven? On your own merit or via a scapegoat?
Revisit substitutionaryatonement or vicarious redemption and scapegoating with me just to refresh yourmemory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNtBkOXItqw
I am not an atheist but Satanand Christians want atheists to embrace barbaric human sacrifice and the notionthat we should profit from punishing the innocent instead of the guilty.Scapegoating IOW.
In reality, if God did demandsuch a barbaric sacrifice, he would be sinning as we all know that it isimmoral to kill the innocent. God knows this yet Christians do not seem to. Youdo. Right?
Those with good morals willknow that no noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a son just toprove it's benevolence. When you die, Satan will ask you; how was your ticketto heaven purchased? With innocent blood?
If and when you say yes, youbecome his.
-----------------------------------
The other option inscriptures, a moral one, is shown here. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slackconcerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering tous-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come torepentance.
Scriptures indicate that Godprefers repentance to sacrifice and as God’s will is supreme and cannot bethwarted, this will come to pass.
---------------------------------
It is a special distortedChristian view of love that sees, --- as the greatest act of love possible, ---their God condemning them, and then turning anddemanding his son’s deaths and thus corrupting God's perfect justice. Abribe set by God as judge himself for himself. This is of course ridiculous.
Christians have an insaneview of love, IMO.
Would you express your lovefor humanity or those you love by having your own child needlesslymurdered?
Or if convinced that asacrifice was somehow good, would you have the moral fortitude to step upyourself to that cross instead of sending your child?
Your cowardly God did not.
What are your thought on this?
Regards
DL
rickolasnice
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"How will you get yourselfinto heaven? On your own merit or via a scapegoat?"
I like.
I like.
Gnostic Bishop
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Christians do not. If I lived in the day when Constantine gave them power they would be quick to kill me.
Yay for the internet.
Regards
DL
Gnostic Bishop said:
How would you define the tree of knowledge? Was it a book, or system for example?
Don't Gnostic Christians see the OT god as a false god?Gnostic Bishop said:
Lucifer -The Light Bringer, went against this false god and shared knowledge that would help us grow beyond the feeble slave race the OT god wanted..
Gnostic Bishop said:
I think the fact (assuming the myth of course) that we ate from the tree of knowledge, and that our knowlege has grown and continues to, shows that it did not stifle our progress..
(I'm a little out of it right now so I may be missing your point. Correct me accordingly Dear Sir
)
Gnostic Bishop
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That quote was not mine. Unless I screwed up.
Man was definitely to eat of the tree of knowledge and continue to eat perpetually.
The tree of knowledge was a representation of all knowledge the tribe or culture had when they put the myth together. Oral, written, etc.
The ancient Gnostic Christians invented the demiurge to try to explain what they saw as imperfections in nature and evil. Christianity invented a God who cursed the whole earth when evicting A & E.
Todays Gnostic Christian will not have an issue with evil as to us it is just a price we have to pay to evolve and survive. If we are to have a fittest then the least fit must die. For the moment at least. We are trying to end that but I do not know if we can.
Lend me your eyes on this longer post.
=====================
Can you help but do evil? I do not seehow. Do you?
And if you cannot, why wouldGod punish you?
Christians are always tryingto absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their freewill argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused ourfall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God'sculpability as the author and creator of human nature.
Free will is only the abilityto choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose"A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Evewould even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed bya serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie inthe nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable fordeliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "freewill" means nothing as a response to this problem.
If all do evil/sin by naturethen, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some whowould not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
Having said the above for theGod that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tellyou that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree withChristians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’sresponsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that canonly be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has beenforcibly withheld.
Much has been written toexplain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.
Consider.
First, let us eliminate whatsome see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and areneither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims arecreated. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this iscalled mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court willnot find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of theact.
Evil then is only human tohuman when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
As evolving creatures, all weever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see asgood as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as itcreates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing,doing evil, at all times.
Without us doing some ofboth, we would likely go extinct.
This, to me, explains whythere is evil in the world quite well.
Be you a believer in nature,evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something toblame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanksfor being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, withoutevolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.
There is no conflict betweennature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all mustdo what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to thiscompetition.
This link speak to theisticevolution.
http://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH#g/c/6F8036F680C1DBEB
If theistic evolution istrue, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not reallyany original sin.
Doing evil then is actuallyforced on us by evolution and the need to survive. Our default position is tocooperate or to do good. I offer this clip as proof of this. You will note thatwe default to good as it is better for survival.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA
Can you help but do evil? Ido not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why wouldGod punish you?
=========================
I think the fact (assuming the myth of course) that we ate from the tree of knowledge, and that our knowlege has grown and continues to, shows that it did not stifle our progress..
(I'm a little out of it right now so I may be missing your point. Correct me accordingly Dear Sir
Correct that our progress continues as we did not idolize what we knew back then.
You will remember that when the Church did idolize what it thought it knew, it created the Dark Ages showing how harmful it is to idolize anything.
All we know should be vigorously defended as well as vigorously attacked if there is any ammunition against the status quo of accepted beliefs.
Be it science or religion ---- 1Thesalonian 5;21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Regards
DL
Gnostic Bishop said:
I see the Tree of Knowlege as the Qabbalistic Tree of Life. The Tree of Life is of course not just used by Qabbalists, but also by the mystical practioners of the Abrahamic faiths, and even other groups, like Gnostics...
http://gnosticteachings.org/the-tea...n/43-kabbalah-the-universal-tree-of-life.html
So having strong Gnostic leanings myself, I tend to the idea that the god of the OT was a false god, whom attempted to decieve humanity and keep them in ignorance. The Serpent ( which represents Kundalini ), can also be seen as Lucifer, who imparted the knowledge of the Tree of Life in order for humans to maximise their potential. An idea completely at odds with the OT god who saw us as slaves.
I think it's possible this was a physical being, maybe an advanced race with an ego problem. I know that's a little out there, and I wouldn't exactly say it's what I believe. But I do find the idea fascinating!
With regards to what you say about evil, I fully agree
Gnostic Bishop
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I see the Tree of Knowlege as the Qabbalistic Tree of Life. The Tree of Life is of course not just used by Qabbalists, but also by the mystical practioners of the Abrahamic faiths, and even other groups, like Gnostics...
http://gnosticteachings.org/the-tea...n/43-kabbalah-the-universal-tree-of-life.html
So having strong Gnostic leanings myself, I tend to the idea that the god of the OT was a false god, whom attempted to decieve humanity and keep them in ignorance. The Serpent ( which represents Kundalini ), can also be seen as Lucifer, who imparted the knowledge of the Tree of Life in order for humans to maximise their potential. An idea completely at odds with the OT god who saw us as slaves.
I think it's possible this was a physical being, maybe an advanced race with an ego problem. I know that's a little out there, and I wouldn't exactly say it's what I believe. But I do find the idea fascinating!
With regards to what you say about evil, I fully agree
I do not see the Kabbalistic thinking put into the main Gnostic myths. They seem to me to follow the Christian one closely except for the demiurge and some of the other sky people that we invented. After all, we are Gnostic Christians, not Gnostic Cabbalists.
Your comment on an advanced being sounds like you literally believe in such. Or is it just my reading?
That would be a supernatural entity that you would be believing in would it not?
Nice that you see what I meant about evil.
Regards
DL
Gnostic Bishop said:
Don't Gnostics believe in the divine spark present within all beings. This spark has become entrenched in matter and bodies, and it is through looking inwards that you can realise this, whilst you carry on growing?
I personally find this very similar to Kabbalistic teachings.
Gnostic Bishop said:
Not necessarily. They could be an advanced alien race? They could be an older race on earth that evolved to the skys?
Also, I could never make a full dismissal of some 'super'natural beings involved also. But like I said, I don't 'believe' any of that to be true, but I think there's a higher possibility of it being true than most would feel comfortable admitting.
rickolasnice
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You've been watching too much Stargate 
You'd find "Chariot of the Gods" interesting.. it's a book about ancient astronaut theory (which is basically what you are talking about)
It's full of shit but it's interesting
You'd find "Chariot of the Gods" interesting.. it's a book about ancient astronaut theory (which is basically what you are talking about)
It's full of shit but it's interesting
How dare you blaspheme against Stargate! Merging minds with the To'kra is perfectly legit
Yeh I'm aware of Von Daniken, Stitchen etc. Could be a bunch of balony, but I'm more inclined to the idea they may have been physical beings, as opposed to angels sent by God himself. Nearly every creation story on earth involves beings coming from the sky. Even cultures that were completely cut off from each other share this common thread.
But, fuck knows really, they haven't responded to me running around naked in my garden sending them morse code messages with a torch. Yet...
Yeh I'm aware of Von Daniken, Stitchen etc. Could be a bunch of balony, but I'm more inclined to the idea they may have been physical beings, as opposed to angels sent by God himself. Nearly every creation story on earth involves beings coming from the sky. Even cultures that were completely cut off from each other share this common thread.
But, fuck knows really, they haven't responded to me running around naked in my garden sending them morse code messages with a torch. Yet...
Gnostic Bishop
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Good and I agree with this last.
To your first.
I am not as well versed on Kabbalah as you likely are but to me, they are far into the Eastern thinking, chakras and what not, than the Gnostic Christianity that I see moving towards the monotheistic side. Christianity, in some senses is an easier myth to follow that Kabbalah. I only have one book in my library on Kabbalah and do not look at it often.
The spark of God within us, I explain this way.
Our brains produce consciousness and mind.
These, or this, produce soul, as described as a link to God.
God, described as a mainframe computer.
Gnostic Jesus indicates this logic trail in this link at about the 1.5 min. mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN_uLYJBi4c&feature=related
Regards
DL
Gnostic Bishop said:
I personally wouldn't class Kabbalah as a myth, in the truest sense. While many a different myth can be applied to Kabbalah, depending on your own personal bent. Kabbalah is more an active practice. Like yoga, or buddhist meditations. You're right in saying it is very heavily influenced by eastern philosophy, but Jesus clearly was as well.
Where a Gnostic may simply enter the sacred space to 'commune' with god, the Kabbalist will enter many different states as well. Some of these different states providing different perspectives on the nature of reality.
I highly recommend Dion Fortune's, The Mystical Qabalah, for the best, modern interpretation of the system
Gnostic Bishop said:
I see your interpretation as perfectly valid, but my personal slant on things differs slightly.
The sparks within us, are everywhere, on all points of the grid. Allowing the divine spark to flow through any combination of matter you can conceive. Nothing can stop the spark.
I consider this spark to be a quantized, discreet unit of the all pervading, fundamental consciousness field. The wave as the particle.
So I see this fundamental unit as our soul. Our souls have been around long enough to have grown though atoms, gas, stars, planets, animals, and now self aware beings. It is at this point the soul can now begin to direct it's progress instead of being subject to the whims of chaos. Our souls need to fully incorporate, and understand the mind (which is a product of the body) to gain a deeper understanding, and so, freedom.
Kabbalah, amonst other systems, IMO, provide at least very good groundwork for acheiving this.
Gnostic Bishop
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I personally wouldn't class Kabbalah as a myth, in the truest sense. While many a different myth can be applied to Kabbalah, depending on your own personal bent. Kabbalah is more an active practice. Like yoga, or buddhist meditations. You're right in saying it is very heavily influenced by eastern philosophy, but Jesus clearly was as well.
Where a Gnostic may simply enter the sacred space to 'commune' with god, the Kabbalist will enter many different states as well. Some of these different states providing different perspectives on the nature of reality.
I highly recommend Dion Fortune's, The Mystical Qabalah, for the best, modern interpretation of the system
I see your interpretation as perfectly valid, but my personal slant on things differs slightly.
The sparks within us, are everywhere, on all points of the grid. Allowing the divine spark to flow through any combination of matter you can conceive. Nothing can stop the spark.
I consider this spark to be a quantized, discreet unit of the all pervading, fundamental consciousness field. The wave as the particle.
So I see this fundamental unit as our soul. Our souls have been around long enough to have grown though atoms, gas, stars, planets, animals, and now self aware beings. It is at this point the soul can now begin to direct it's progress instead of being subject to the whims of chaos. Our souls need to fully incorporate, and understand the mind (which is a product of the body) to gain a deeper understanding, and so, freedom.
Kabbalah, amonst other systems, IMO, provide at least very good groundwork for acheiving this.
Absolutely. And I was correct in you being well versed, and spoken, on this. I should be so gifted for Gnostic Christianity. I would kick ass.
Kabbalah can be as complicated as Gnostic Christianity as compared to Christianity and because of the low threshold of knowledge of the average Christian, I decided to study that version more than the more interesting traditions that predated the garbage that was made of Christianity and Islam.
Regards
DL
Gnostic Bishop said:
I think you already kick ass, brother. In not only highlighting the importance of introspection, but tying up the literalist in knots of, ultimately, his own making. It is a sacred art you practice
Gnostic Bishop said:
I think Gnosticism and Qabbalah make perfect bed-fellows. The Gnostic will already have the required discipline to approach it with a true respect. I'm not going so far as to say 'EVERYONE MUST PRATICE QABBALAH!!!', I merely highlight it as another tool for veiwing the universe.
( I prefer the Q spelling to the K, for Qabbalah, to highlight my personal, mythic approach. The Q indicates a Western Occult/Hermetic tint. Which I think is the most up to date. Qabbalah is not a final product. As the universe grows and evolves, so shall Qabbalah)
Peace
Gnostic Bishop, you seem like a decent person, with good intention for what you believe is a worthy cause, but let me tell you this... You can copy and paste the same text and the same things over and over from wherever, make multiple threads trying to denounce Christianity, but honestly if you are trying to change anyone who is strongly rooted in Christ, or change what they believe about God or themselves, you really are wasting your time.
A Christian with a solid foundation in Christ won't be defined by what anyone says except for who God says they are. You won't be able to sway them. You are knocking on solid stone that can't be broken. You might have some success persuading someone weaker in the faith, but really, what is your goal?
Matthew 7:24-26
Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.” NKJV
Psalm 62:1-7
Truly my soul silently waits for God;
From Him comes my salvation.
He only is my rock and my salvation;
He is my defense;
I shall not be greatly moved.
How long will you attack a man?
You shall be slain, all of you,
Like a leaning wall and a tottering fence.
They only consult to cast him down from his high position;
They delight in lies;
They bless with their mouth,
But they curse inwardly. Selah
My soul, wait silently for God alone,
For my expectation is from Him.
He only is my rock and my salvation;
He is my defense;
I shall not be moved.
In God is my salvation and my glory;
The rock of my strength,
And my refuge, is in God. NKJV
There's a tremendous amount of scripture that I could use to support that a true believer won't be knocked down, they are rooted in solid ground, built on strong foundation, connected to the vine, hear and follow the voice of the spirit of truth, won't be snatched out of God's hands, etc etc, but I'm sure you've heard it.
If I may give you a suggestion for your spiritual health, since you have already denied Christ, I think your primary focus should be on the positive aspects of your own religion you believe in instead of focusing on the negatives of a religion you don't believe in.
The word religion is distasteful and I dislike using it for what I believe, religion to me is man-made rules, laws, rituals, and traditions. Whereas Christianity is more of a growing relationship with God for me than it is following rituals and traditions created by men. It's difficult to describe with words what this relationship does for me.
I tend to stick to Christology, it is much more uplifting and enlightening.
A Christian with a solid foundation in Christ won't be defined by what anyone says except for who God says they are. You won't be able to sway them. You are knocking on solid stone that can't be broken. You might have some success persuading someone weaker in the faith, but really, what is your goal?
Matthew 7:24-26
Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.” NKJV
Psalm 62:1-7
Truly my soul silently waits for God;
From Him comes my salvation.
He only is my rock and my salvation;
He is my defense;
I shall not be greatly moved.
How long will you attack a man?
You shall be slain, all of you,
Like a leaning wall and a tottering fence.
They only consult to cast him down from his high position;
They delight in lies;
They bless with their mouth,
But they curse inwardly. Selah
My soul, wait silently for God alone,
For my expectation is from Him.
He only is my rock and my salvation;
He is my defense;
I shall not be moved.
In God is my salvation and my glory;
The rock of my strength,
And my refuge, is in God. NKJV
There's a tremendous amount of scripture that I could use to support that a true believer won't be knocked down, they are rooted in solid ground, built on strong foundation, connected to the vine, hear and follow the voice of the spirit of truth, won't be snatched out of God's hands, etc etc, but I'm sure you've heard it.
If I may give you a suggestion for your spiritual health, since you have already denied Christ, I think your primary focus should be on the positive aspects of your own religion you believe in instead of focusing on the negatives of a religion you don't believe in.
The word religion is distasteful and I dislike using it for what I believe, religion to me is man-made rules, laws, rituals, and traditions. Whereas Christianity is more of a growing relationship with God for me than it is following rituals and traditions created by men. It's difficult to describe with words what this relationship does for me.
I tend to stick to Christology, it is much more uplifting and enlightening.
Without wanting to put words in Gnostic Bishop's mouth, I wouldn't say he's necessarily trying to convert those whose 'faith is too strong' (Im unsure whether that's a good thing or not :/ ). But to an interested agnostic, he does a good job of highlighting the contradictions within certain sets of beliefs.
Now I'm all for contradictions myself, but only the true, unresolvable ones. Not ones easily resolved with a simple shift in perception.
Now I'm all for contradictions myself, but only the true, unresolvable ones. Not ones easily resolved with a simple shift in perception.
What practical good does that do you? What do you really gain that you can apply to your life?
You can not be a spiritual or religious person at all, but how productive is it spending your time finding contradictions in something you don't believe in? Just to validate what you don't believe?