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(HELP) CNS system advice - Upper body lower body split vs Muscle group split

SmokingAces

Bluelighter
Joined
Sep 12, 2014
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Hi I need advice plz,

Basically I have been training upper body (bench press, shoulder press, BB rows, upright rows, DB curls, dips etc) and lower body (squats, deadlifts, straight leg deadlifts sometimes, lunges standing and walking, calf stands). I have been told that the lower body is too much on the CNS with squats and deadlifts on the same day. I know these are heavy on lower back but I can handle it. However I know nothing about the CNS. I was hoping someone here might?

I take a day off after. Usually lower body, upper body, day off. Repeat. Is this a safe way to train or am I really pushing it too much? I am going flat out for power strength and size. My diet and routine are spot on.

If I have to change it up I will continue doing an upper body lower body split, 4 days a week. Except I will switch to doing legs on the Monday, chest and biceps Tuesday, day off, back on Thursday, and Shoulders and triceps on Friday. Or something similar to that school of thought.

Opinions people? I'd really appreciate a quick reply if anyone can as I am already delaying training based on what my friend said about this being dangerous for the CNS. Thanks :)
 
Here me out as I really don't know exactly what to offer you, but I can tell you from my experiences that if you have the ability to work more than one muscle group in a workout you don't train hard enough. If you workout for longer than an hour in my mind you are working out too slow. If you want that extremely dense muscle fiber then you need to learn to train in a manner that caters towards your Type IIA fibers. Split up your muscle groups into 1 day sessions and absolutely destroy there foundation, but make sure you do that day in and day out. I always have one rest day in between all of my workouts because you don't grow when you are in the gym, you grow when you get back to the kitchen and stuff as much food down your throat as you can.
Going for power, strength, and size is really all kind of relating to cellular adaptation or hypertrophy. Strength develops so long as you effectively utilize a progressive overload and occasionally achieving true positive muscle failure. Size takes years regardless if you prefer the natural route or have opted for AAS use. It took me years to develop my calves to the point where they are bigger than most people's biceps and the same thing goes for my quadriceps/hamstrings. I'd say in my first year after I finally corrected all my mistakes I probably acquired 15lbs of solid LBM that stuck.

Considering the description of your routine it is counterproductive to growth. I would perceive your ability to workout your back on Thursday and then being able to successfully train your shoulders the next day as a clear sign you are not training correctly. You are correct about the thought of how taxing a leg day can be, but that's only if you actually tax the muscles down there. You shouldn't be able to go into the gym next day with confidence after destroying your quadriceps/gluteus/hamstrings.
It's worth mentioning that deadlifts can vary greatly in what they target because it's how you perform the lift. Do you lift off the floor, but the reps up until the last one you only allow the eccentric portion of the lift to reach a specific distance like your calves? Or do you consistently pull off the floor and go to the concentric peak, pause for static contraction, and proceed to lower the weight in a controlled manner? Or do you let it slam a little and use the rebound from having some elasticity to the rubber plates and conduct your reps in that fashion? Do you have a deload period?

I really don't know anyone that could feasibly do squats with all their effort and then proceed to execute a worthy workload on deadlifting...

About your CNS.. yes it is possible to compromise the integrity of our central nervous system as it's degradation can lead to diminished immunoactivity, hindered musculoskeletal recovery, as well as reducing the effectiveness to fine tune it's neural system. Think of yourself as a car, with your muscles being the engine and you CNS being the ECU/performance chip. It takes a sufficient amount of time to get around to really add more parts to your muscles because of the astronomical requirement to keep those proteins flowing for repairs. But it isn't too complicated to go out and buy a brand new chip and slap it in. This is the same premise with our body and you can clearly observe this activity when you see individuals who just begin to workout and miraculously have these abnormal incremental increases in their workload or rep range. This isn't hypertrophy of our myocytes, but the response to stimuli from our CNS resulting in acute neural adaptation to further compensate for this new stress it's encountering.

I really can't see you overtraining, but you are training improperly. If you are eating properly and not working out for 3-4 hours a day or doing some ludicrous amount of cardiovascular activities then I can't see it. Jut remember that I'm just a nobody and who knows I could be completely wrong and you could probably snap me in half. I was just offering my perspective.
 
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Well thanks for your reply but unfortunately I disagree completely it is very easy to gain a ton of size and strength training like this as my entire regime is full of compound exercises. I'm not going to break my pb deadlift after squats I'm aware of that. But it's excellent for packing on size. Full body workouts even have been said to be great for packing on size training 2-3 days a week, you're not going to get your best lift in weight but for building size and strength the 3 main things are bench squat deadlift. I do think I'm going to switch up though and train 3 different workouts a week.
 
In essence it's that simple, but once you get up to body compositions like 6'5 207lbs with 7-8% body fat growth is absolutely minuscule even when you are combining a strict routine with AAS use. I've seen some absolute monsters before in my days, but I can say that I've never seen a single one of those monsters ever work two body parts in one day unless it's more of a precontest situation and the goal is to facilitate glycogen depletion and promote maximal hyperemia. When I was getting technical with my methodology I even had my legs separated in the structure of quadriceps/gastrocnemius/soleus in the morning and hamstrings/gluteus maximus.minimus/hip flexors/hip adductors.

I can't really say much else to validate my experience, but I've extensively studied to a pretty significant degree the academic literature involving sports biomechanics, musculoskeletal biomechanics, kinesiology, and anatomy. There is a very intricate science that revolves around what exactly occurs on the biochemical/biomechanical levels. Although there is a massive difference between theoretical applications applied on paper and being able to successfully apply it to real world practice, but I'd say I eventually got the hang of it.

Other more experienced members will chime in eventually! I'm a novice compared to them. I will say if you are highly versed with muscular development then it's paradoxical that you know nothing of CNS and general factors concerning neural adaptations as well as what constitutes overtraining.
 
Here me out as I really don't know exactly what to offer you, but I can tell you from my experiences that if you have the ability to work more than one muscle group in a workout you don't train hard enough.

Seriously? My most productive workouts were after I quit doing 5 day bodybuilding splits and started training heavy compounds. Even if you only do bench press you're still working more than one muscle group. You're way off on this one.
 
Like I said at the end of my post at the end its just my opinionated judgement. I train using HIT principles. If you can do multiple body parts with HIT then you aren't working the body part hard enough. HIT has always allowed me to maintain bizarre density and using HIIT cardio allows me to have absurdly low body fat along with my love for carbohydrate periodization. In the end we all respond differently as we have different expressions controlling out fiber population. I don't squat more than maybe 250 lbs anymore, yet I have a vertical leap that is almost double the majority of people.

However, if you claim sufficient knowledge of fitness science and undestanding the biomechanical factors being altered then you would know about the CNS. You would understand the basics of neural adaptation and you would already know that a deload is one of the most important parts of prolonging your lifting career and allowing the fragile connections within your joints and tendons to have sufficient unloading in order to progressively strengthen at the correct pace with your muscle development.

It's all about what you want to do. I offered a perspective, but if you think it's wrong so be it. I'm not anymore reliable as a reputable source then the next person. Just take everything with a grain of salt, but at least comprehend the principles of what they are attempting to convey. Maybe I'm the moron in this situation and you guys need to show me how to lift!

There is no right or wrong. I used splits when I was in my teens and I never really got the results I wanted, but as I learned to listen to my body I figured everything out. I know it works for me because I'm in the gym and out in 40 minutes while there is people there when I get there and when I leave. Yet they look like garbage compared to me.

Sorry about coming off as a prude Sid. I should have worded my response differently.
 
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I think most people in the gym actually underestimate how much your cns can handle. As long as you're getting enough rest and food you can push your body pretty fucking hard. Just look at how Olympic lifters train. And while I'm kind of unclear what the question actually is, I guess my only advice to the OP would just be to listen to your body. It's pretty good at telling you if you need to rest another day, got more in the tank, need to do a full deload, WHATEVER. Not a very scientific approach, but I've just never been a fan of over-complicating things in the gym.
 
Signs of Overtraining

You’re Getting Sick. A lot. A lot more than usual, in fact. Getting sick in and of itself doesn’t mean you’re overtraining. However, if you’re finding yourself with the sniffles more often, or if you’re waking up with a sore throat multiple days in a row and you’ve recently increased your training schedule, it may be worth investigating. There are many ways to give your immune system a run for its money, including but not limited to; under sleeping, high stress, improper nutrition, etc. If these things are all in check though, you may simply be pushing your body too hard and a well earned break from training may be your best remedy.

Past Ailments Are Back. If you’ve had a nagging injury or used bad form in the past that you’ve since recovered from or fixed, and it’s now coming back to haunt you, chances are it’s because you’ve upped your training recently and it’s a bit much for your body. Best to reel back the reins and ease into your increased training more slowly. If that causes the your former problem to rear it’s ugly head too, then you’re probably just trying to do too much, period.

You Feel Awful After a Workout. If you regularly exercise, you know all about that great feeling you get after a workout. Usually, this will last for the rest of the day. That’s thanks to the endorphins that exercise has been proven release. Sometimes, you might get some delayed onset muscle soreness, but this in and of itself can be a good kind of pain. But what happens if you just feel like crawling into a hole and dying after a workout? I can safely say that this isn’t normal. Whether you’re physically or mentally worn down to the point of feeling miserable after your workouts, you’re probably exercising too much.

Your Limbs or Joints Hurt. Your body is better at telling you that it doesn’t like something you’re doing better than your concious brain is. If you’re training in a way which is causing aggravation to a joint, you’re probably doing something wrong. It could be that you’re just using improper form (whether lifting or running), or it could simply be that you’re doing too much of it. It could also be a case of delayed onset muscle soreness, but that usually goes away within a day or two. Only time will tell. Don’t let that endorphin high get the best of you – if you’re doing something daily that is causing pain in any area of your body, back off for a while.

You Can’t Finish Your Normal Workout Routine. If you ever get to a point where you’re consistently struggling to finish workouts that you’ve done dozens of times before, you may very well be overtraining yourself. I’m not talking about pushing yourself to complete a longer run than usual, or lifting more weight than usual and failing to complete it. I’m talking about not being able to complete a task that you’ve routinely successfully completed in the past. This is a sign that you’re regressing in your training and you need a good break before coming back to it with fresh eyes and muscles.

You’re In a Foul Mood. Especially after your workouts. Scientists have recognized that an athlete’s phycological state is often a better diagnostic tool than physical factors when trying to determine if overtraining is at play, according to Jack Raglin, Ph.D., a Kinesiology professor and researcher on sports and psychology at Indiana University. “Changes in demeanor are an early sign of overtraining, so if a runner recognizes this symptom, he can adjust his training to prevent physical damage,” says Raglin. He goes on to state that if you can catch overtraining in its early stages, then simply taking a day or two off will remedy the situation.

A Loss of Enthusiasm. Chances are, when you first got into your current workout groove you were excited about it. You were excited about your future results. You craved the post-exercise feeling and benefits. If you’re at the stage where you’re approaching the overtraining bug, you’ll quickly find that enthusiasm withering away. The spark has disappeared. When you get to that point where exercise is just another “thing” in your busy schedule that you feel you must do, it’s probably time to have a look at your routine and see if something needs some changing. Exercise should have a level of fun to it, and not consistently feel like a chore. This attitude can be a sign of overtraining.

You’re Losing Muscle or Gaining Fat Despite Increased Exercise. If you’re working out like crazy to try to increase your results, only to have the exact opposite thing happen, then you may be overtraining (or you’ve started eating way too much). If your diet hasn’t changed, then it’s probably because you’ve upset your cortisol and testosterone levels. Too much exercise can result in an excess of cortisol and reduced testosterone. Cortisol will increase the levels of fat on the body. Your body is also probably looking to glycogen as a fuel supply since you’re exercising so much. Glycogen is stored in your muscles, and the effect of your body using glycogen as fuel, combined with reduced testosterone, is a loss of muscle size. If you’re regressing in terms of body composition despite increased training and a similar diet, you’re probably overtraining.

Excitability and Insomnia. This is usually more of a problem for explosive athletes like power lifters and sprinters, but the inability to sleep and increased restlessness is often a tell tale sign of overtraining. This is due to your sympathetic nervous system being stressed to it’s breaking point. Other common symptoms include increased heart rate, even while at rest or at first waking in the morning, and an inability to focus.

Sluggishness and Chronic Fatigue. These symptoms tend to affect endurance athletes more than the explosive force-type athletes. They’re products of your parasympathetic nervous system being overworked, and is a very real danger for people who tend to run 50+ miles a week. The fatigue associated with this type of overtraining can be both mental and physical, and you may feel like your legs are heavier, your zest for training has disappeared, and like you’re just plain ol’ useless.

In the end, there is no definitive test for overtraining, not even for high calibre athletes. The only way to know for sure if you’re overtraining is by exclusion of other causes, and being aware of the signs and symptoms above. It never hurts to take some time off. Your body doesn’t get faster and stronger by training. It gets faster and stronger while it’s recovering.

http://www.outlawfitnesshq.com/10-signs-and-symptoms-youre-overtraining/
 
Central Nervous System (CNS) Fatigue

By Mike Westerdal of CriticalBench.com

You might not recognize the name, but you may be familiar with the effects of Central Nervous System (CNS) Fatigue. The symptoms of CNS Fatigue can include lack of motivation, poor mood, impaired cognitive ability and abnormally high perceptions in regards to the force of exertion-that is, we think we're working out a lot harder than we actually are. These are the most obvious symptoms, but there are other less evident ones too.

You already know that the central nervous system is what controls our body's functions, which includes muscle contractions. The theory behind CNS Fatigue is that there are not one, but two points from which our muscles can become fatigued: 1) in the muscle itself; and 2) at the point of origin of the muscular contraction (the central nervous system). Fatigue in the muscle itself is referred to as peripheral fatigue while fatigue at the point of origin is known as central fatigue.

We're all familiar with peripheral fatigue and what to do about it-proper nutrition, supplementation and allowing sufficient time for recovery between training sessions. But how do you manage fatigue that starts deep down in the brain and hits before it even gets to the muscle? That's a mystery that researchers have been working to unravel over the past several years and fortunately, they've made a lot of headway.

Just like everything else in our bodies, the central nervous system needs fuel to keep it going. If that system is running low on fuel, then performance-including muscle function-is hampered. Specifically, the function of the neurotransmitters-which are responsible for sending signals from the brain to the muscles-are impaired. This would also result in the onset of the psychological symptoms (poor mood, lack of motivation, etc.) mentioned above. Just like the muscle systems, the central nervous system can run out of fuel due to overexertion or lack of nutrition. Some powerlifters and strongmen competitors are particularly susceptible to CNS Fatigue due to the fact that they often do so many single repetition lifts. This can overly stress the nervous system, cause it to "run out of fuel" and can result in the onset of CNS Fatigue.

Much of the research into CNS Fatigue has focused on Serotonin (5-HT) and Dopamine due to their roles in regulating things like sensory perception, mood and more. Research suggests that an imbalance in these neurotransmitters-specifically, a spike in Serotonin and a drop in Dopamine levels-is associated with the onset of CNS Fatigue. The theory is the high 5-HT/low Dopamine brings on CNS Fatigue with low 5-HT/high Dopamine resulting in enhanced performance. That is really good news because proper training, nutrition and supplementation can help manage Serotonin/Dopamine levels in our brains.

Proper training means making sure that your body has plenty of time to rest and recover between workout sessions. It's not only the muscle systems that need to recover, but the central nervous system as well. That's only logical given that the symptoms of overtraining are not just physical, but mental too-and exactly like the psychological effects associated with CNS Fatigue. In terms of overtraining, researchers have looked at both insufficient recovery time between training sessions as well as prolonged periods of physical activity, with the presumption being that both result in the onset of CNS Fatigue.

It's actually very complex, but in layman's terms, on the nutrition side research has mostly focused on carbs and Branched Chain Amino Acids (BCAAs) and their impact on the 5-HT/Dopamine balance in the brain. Carbs are thought to play an important role in combating the onset of CNS Fatigue due to their impact on fatty acid (FA), tryptophan (TRP) and free tryptophan (f-TRP) levels in the body, all of which are related to 5-HT/Dopamine levels in the brain. Increases in BCAA intake are thought to suppress 5-HT metabolism in the brain during exercise. So in theory, the combination of the two (carbs/BCAAs) should help to maintain the proper balance of 5-HT/Dopamine levels, helping to prevent the onset on CNS Fatigue.

Our nervous systems are incredibly complex and research into CNS Fatigue is still in the early stages so there are no definitive answers. We do know though that for regular bodybuilders, proper training (with plenty of recovery time between sessions) and nutrition can help avoid CNS Fatigue. Powerlifters and strongman competitors should be particularly careful to not overtrain and they may also have to deload or work in some down weeks too if symptoms of CNS Fatigue appear.

http://www.criticalbench.com/CNS_central_nervous_system_fatigue.htm
 
Cheers nutty, very informative. With regard to training I experienced exactly the same as you. I gained way more when I stopped doing the traditional chest/biceps on a monday, legs on a tuesday type workouts and focused instead on packing the weights on my bench squat deadlifts. I think there are too many isolation exercises in that type of programme and it hinders size by not focusing on enough compounds.

However GrymReefer was also right I think doing the squats and deadlifts on the same day is probably not the way, purely because it means I'll progress with my squats but not my deadlifts. I've packed a decent amount back on in the last couple of weeks and got back into a routine.

At a bit of a mental cross roads as to what to do. I don't really want to go back to a four day muscle group split, as I've been gaining rather rapidly. But I need to do my squats and deadlifts on different days for them to progress evenly. So I will probably be forced to switch back to a muscle group type split the only difference is I will be maybe only training 3 different workouts an upper body beginning with bench and shoulder press, a lower body which will be all legs and a back workout which will be mostly all pull motions and probably feature some additional biceps. Does that sound better?
 
Really just depends what you're trying to do. The routine I worked out best for me was squatting Mondays, deadlifting Wednesdays and then squatting again Friday but that was geared towards powerlifting. I've also squatted and deadlifted on the same day but kept the deads submaximal.
 
I train purely for size and strength, I also do swimming for cardio as it doesnt ware me out the same. To look and feel good, fresh. It keeps me off drugs too.

I've decided to train on a 3 day split but I'll be focusing hard on compounds and going heavy on those final sets. I think I can manage upper body all in one workout, by doing biceps on the day i do my deadlifts. I was back to my own bodyweight on deadlifts today after not squatting first. think I can hit 90-100kg by the end of the year.
 
training like what you're saying won't do anything to the CNS. The only thing that can happen if you train at 90% or more of your 1 Rep max for more than 30 days straight is you will become counter productive if you're goal is to increase strength. I have a degree in Exercise Science and have been a personal trainer professionally for almost 9 years.

Check out WestSideBarbell.com. You can pay a reasonable fee per month and get all the programming done for you, you'll just have to figure out ways to get creative with some of the movements because they require bands/chains and other equipment you won't find at a typical commercial gym. Otherwise, consider checking out crossfit. There's a lot of haters on it, but if you use some common sense when doing it, it's very fun and effective and you'll end up making a lot of good friends. Good luck!
 
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