Blowmonkey
Bluelight Crew
bluedolphin said:
But it stays speculation..
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Trip Reports Moderator: Cheshire_Kat
HBWR - Inexperienced - The joy of being alive
- Thread starter Hypercloud
- Start date
But it stays speculation..
Hessel R.K.
Bluelighter
So, can anyone say, with certainty, that there are some of the same chems in HBWR as in ergot of rye, hence the ergotism? Or is that more net speculation.
I didnt think erowid would have accepted that trip report where they said there was cyanide in the seeds if it was false, I thought they would have at least put a disclaimer in there.
MGS, you're a big gun at erowid or something, arent you? you ever ask them about it? Just wondering
I didnt think erowid would have accepted that trip report where they said there was cyanide in the seeds if it was false, I thought they would have at least put a disclaimer in there.
MGS, you're a big gun at erowid or something, arent you? you ever ask them about it? Just wondering
Morninggloryseed
Bluelight Crew
Ok, damn I wish I got paid for this.
There are many fungi in the Hypocreaceae family that produce the interesting lysergic acid amides alkaloids (LSAs, ergolines.) These alkaloids are found in many genuses of Hypocreaceae. The most common are in the ergot genus, and this includes the well-known species Claviceps purpurea and Claviceps paspali. Some of these same alkaloids are found outside of the Hypocreaceae family. They are also found in the higher plant-family, Convolvulaceae, which includes the morning glory family.
According to A. Hoffmann (inventor of LSD) who said in his book "The Road to Eleusis: Unveiling the Secret of the Mysteries" that, "Ergoline alkaloids more or less fall into two categories: non-water soluble peptide alkaloids, which exert more toxic effects, and water soluble lysergic acid derivatives with psychedelic effects more pronounced."
Claviceps purpurea is known to produce these toxic ergopeptide compounds that cause the syndrome known as "St. Anthony's Fire" or ergot poisoning. Ergocristine, ergocryptine and Beta-ergocryptine are three that come to mind, but there are many others I don't remember off my head. These chemicals are intensely toxic and the poisoning can not be often be reversed often once it has really taken hold. The stories of arms falling off from ergot are no joke.
Another species of ergot, Claviceps paspali does not produce these toxic ergopeptides, but instead only produces the psychedelic lysergic acid amides also found in some morning glory seeds. It is this species of ergot that the ancient psychedelic of Greece, "kykeon", was made from. Neither kykeon, nor any species of morning glory has ever caused ergotism because neither contain the toxic ergopeptides.
Seriously, I wish people would do more research before spreading silly rumors like "morning glory can cause ergotism in high dosages", or insinuating they can because that obviously indicates that one does not have any idea what causes ergot poisoning in the first place. The chemicals in morning glory seeds do not cause ergot poisoning.
One doesn't need to ask Erowid or anyone else. This research on ergot has been going on since the 1930s and simply reading a few books and journals would tell you all these things I am. One should read them before assuming what causes ergot poisoning is what is in morning glory seeds. It isn't and this is how crazy rumors like "LSD will make your spine bleed" get started.
There are many fungi in the Hypocreaceae family that produce the interesting lysergic acid amides alkaloids (LSAs, ergolines.) These alkaloids are found in many genuses of Hypocreaceae. The most common are in the ergot genus, and this includes the well-known species Claviceps purpurea and Claviceps paspali. Some of these same alkaloids are found outside of the Hypocreaceae family. They are also found in the higher plant-family, Convolvulaceae, which includes the morning glory family.
According to A. Hoffmann (inventor of LSD) who said in his book "The Road to Eleusis: Unveiling the Secret of the Mysteries" that, "Ergoline alkaloids more or less fall into two categories: non-water soluble peptide alkaloids, which exert more toxic effects, and water soluble lysergic acid derivatives with psychedelic effects more pronounced."
Claviceps purpurea is known to produce these toxic ergopeptide compounds that cause the syndrome known as "St. Anthony's Fire" or ergot poisoning. Ergocristine, ergocryptine and Beta-ergocryptine are three that come to mind, but there are many others I don't remember off my head. These chemicals are intensely toxic and the poisoning can not be often be reversed often once it has really taken hold. The stories of arms falling off from ergot are no joke.
Another species of ergot, Claviceps paspali does not produce these toxic ergopeptides, but instead only produces the psychedelic lysergic acid amides also found in some morning glory seeds. It is this species of ergot that the ancient psychedelic of Greece, "kykeon", was made from. Neither kykeon, nor any species of morning glory has ever caused ergotism because neither contain the toxic ergopeptides.
Seriously, I wish people would do more research before spreading silly rumors like "morning glory can cause ergotism in high dosages", or insinuating they can because that obviously indicates that one does not have any idea what causes ergot poisoning in the first place. The chemicals in morning glory seeds do not cause ergot poisoning.
One doesn't need to ask Erowid or anyone else. This research on ergot has been going on since the 1930s and simply reading a few books and journals would tell you all these things I am. One should read them before assuming what causes ergot poisoning is what is in morning glory seeds. It isn't and this is how crazy rumors like "LSD will make your spine bleed" get started.
Hessel R.K.
Bluelighter
Thanks- Now Im just pissed that my body doesnt like HBWR. god. damn. it.
Thats pretty interesting that one speceies of ergot is relatively safe. I did read a bunch about ergot o rye in some biology class, but I thought that it was always bad shit.
Acutally, I think I'll try to soak some seeds in water and oil mixture. maybe after discarding the oil I'll have a better chemical coctail to ingest.
Thats pretty interesting that one speceies of ergot is relatively safe. I did read a bunch about ergot o rye in some biology class, but I thought that it was always bad shit.
Acutally, I think I'll try to soak some seeds in water and oil mixture. maybe after discarding the oil I'll have a better chemical coctail to ingest.
Morninggloryseed
Bluelight Crew
^^^^^^^^^^
It is not just Claviceps paspali that produces only the psychedelic LSAs and none of the toxic ergopeptide alkaloids. There are other Claviceps sp. that produce only the LSAs. A few genuses besides Claviceps in the Hypocreaceae family also produce the "good" alkaloids.
There is an extensive list in J. Ott's "Pharmocotheon" of plants and fungi with LSAs in them.
I don't feel like grabbing the book for latin names (sorry), but the fungus that infests corn, "corn smut", which is related to ergot produces a lot of LA-111. So do various Acremonium sp. that infest Stipa robusta (sleepy grass) and other species of grass. LSAs are actually quite widespread in nature. Much like DMT.
It is not just Claviceps paspali that produces only the psychedelic LSAs and none of the toxic ergopeptide alkaloids. There are other Claviceps sp. that produce only the LSAs. A few genuses besides Claviceps in the Hypocreaceae family also produce the "good" alkaloids.
There is an extensive list in J. Ott's "Pharmocotheon" of plants and fungi with LSAs in them.
I don't feel like grabbing the book for latin names (sorry), but the fungus that infests corn, "corn smut", which is related to ergot produces a lot of LA-111. So do various Acremonium sp. that infest Stipa robusta (sleepy grass) and other species of grass. LSAs are actually quite widespread in nature. Much like DMT.
bluedolphin
Bluelight Crew
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2003
- Messages
- 6,062
morninggloryseed said:
I didn't see anyone say that. Nor would the assertion be like spreading the "LSD makes your spine bleed" rumor.
Ergine, ergonovine, or some of the other alkaloids in morning glory and HBWR cause constriction of the blood vessels. This is the main side effect caused by the fungus claviceps purpurea responsible for historical cases of ergotism.
The difference is, people don't eat morning glory seeds every day. People would continue to feed from infected rye stashes, continually feeding on the problem fungus. Therefore the condition of vascoconstriction would become a serious problem leading to gangrene.
No doubt there are other toxic alkaloids present in claviceps purpurea which may very well have *worse* affects. Yet ergine and isoergine are also present in claviceps purpurea, and most likely contribute to the overall poisoning.
As you know there are lots of LSAs, and many of them have overlapping properties. Just because morning glory seed and HBWR don't have the *most* toxic LSAs doesn't mean they don't have their own LSAs which can cause the same effects on a lesser scale.
And since these other, less toxic LSAs are present in ergot as well, and since I have personally experienced effects from morning glory seeds and HBWR which I would consider poisoning (cold limbs, shooting pains, numb extremities) I think it is reasonable and accurate to refer to the toxic effects of morning glory and HBWR as a "mild and temporary case of ergotism", even if it is not exactly the traditional "St. Anthony's Fire".
I don't want to argue over symantics, but if you have a reason why you think this is wrong I'd love to hear it. I just wanted to point out that this argument may not be a closed case, and that other people might know a thing or two about these alkaloids
Hessel R.K.
Bluelighter
Seriously, corn smut?!? Thats weird, that shit plagues my sweet corn patch, and I had heard that Japanese fry and eat that.
Well Its that exact time of the year... I guess I'll get a book and try and see what type of corn smutt I got. Im sure theres various strains of it and I REALLY dont want any more ergotism feelings.
does corn smut have like a tiny percent of alkaloids or somethin? I cant believe ive just been burning it all these years!
Well Its that exact time of the year... I guess I'll get a book and try and see what type of corn smutt I got. Im sure theres various strains of it and I REALLY dont want any more ergotism feelings.
does corn smut have like a tiny percent of alkaloids or somethin? I cant believe ive just been burning it all these years!
Morninggloryseed
Bluelight Crew
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Please don't eat strange fungi because J. Ott listed a species of corn smut as containing psychedelic LSAs. Or at least don't eat it because you heard it from me! 8(
Please don't eat strange fungi because J. Ott listed a species of corn smut as containing psychedelic LSAs. Or at least don't eat it because you heard it from me! 8(
Hessel R.K.
Bluelighter
hahha hah ahh yea of course I gotta look that shit up!