Opioids Hate Tramadol/Vicodin, Will I Hate Kratom??

[5_HT2A]

Tramadol makes me super pissed off, OCD and kinda agitated hypomanic. Vicodin is euphoric but makes me OCD and gives me jaw muscle pain. I just ordered 2 oz of kratom and I probably should've asked before ordering, but anyone think that it'll make me feel shitty just like 2 rx opioids? I like oxy a lot but don't get it anymore.

 

[Stotched]

Yeah, kratom feels more like tramadol than any other opiate. And it's pretty weak too. If you're banging more than 2 bags of H a day, it won't even take away withdrawals. Kratom affects your norepiniphrine, and serotonin the same way that tramadol does. I'd say its not even similar to any opiate other than tramadol.

 

[5_HT2A]

damn what if i have no opioid tolerance though? also i got bali. thing is i loved oxy. and today i took a bunch of trams without benadryl and it felt amazing. so maybe it was the 2d6 inhib. idk, but ill just have to give kratom a shot. Anyone on this forum dislike kratom or any opiates? what kinda feeling you get from em?

 

[TheLostBoys]

A lot of people love oxycodone, I on the other hand hate it.......it makes me irratable & gives me rebound pain & headaches.

Only time I ever got anything close to euphoria was the old OC 80's but still needed to take some Tylenol or Advil for the headaches.

I really like hydrocodone, never got any OCD from it.

 

[laCster]

kratom feels similar to tramadol, but that is just like saying an apple is similar to an orange. some people like apples and some people prefer oranges.

 

[《Plasticity》]

Kratom affects your norepiniphrine, and serotonin the same way that tramadol does.

Source? I've yet to see any real evidence supporting this but I'd be curious to see. During the duration of my habit, I've mixed kratom with so many substances, many of which would be seriously contraindicated with tramadol, and have been totally fine, actually quite great. I'm talking drugs from MDMA, aMT, MXE, and even syrian rue... not that this is recommended of course. I've yet to have any real complications from mixing drugs with kratom and doubt it affects serotonin in any significant way.

 

[Stotched]

Source? I've yet to see any real evidence supporting this but I'd be curious to see. During the duration of my habit, I've mixed kratom with so many substances, many of which would be seriously contraindicated with tramadol, and have been totally fine, actually quite great. I'm talking drugs from MDMA, aMT, MXE, and even syrian rue... not that this is recommended of course. I've yet to have any real complications from mixing drugs with kratom and doubt it affects serotonin in any significant way.

http://www.kratom.net/content.php?4...-Kratom-and-their-known-or-potential-activity

Seems I had it wrong, it's actually a serotonin ANTAGONIST, not Agonist.

 

[《Plasticity》]

Are you talking about mitragynine's possible 5-ht2a antagonist activity? This has yet to be proven afaik. If this were true, it would cause downregulation at 5-ht2a if used with any regularity rendering serotonergic psychedelics useless.

I took high doses of kratom everyday for years and tripped maybe about 100x during this period and psychedelics were just as effective. This suggests to me that mitragynine does not have any activity at 5-ht2a at all. Funny because I posted about this in NPD a couple days ago as well, Sekio agreed that he doesn't believe it has any effect on 5-ht2a.

 

[Stotched]

I'm convinced it has SSRI or SNRI activity, due to the fact that when I stopped taking both my paxil and Tramadol, I started having terrible SSRI discontinuation symptoms. 3 days later I had a kilo of kratom, and took some, and most of the symptoms went away. This leads me to believe that kratom has some affect on serotonin, or else the SSRI withdrawal symptoms would still be there. I also get these same symptoms by day 2 of not taking any kratom.

 

[《Plasticity》]

Both gabapentin and pregabalin take away 90+% of my kratom withdrawal, does that mean that both pregab and gbp have mu opioid activity? This isn't the the place for discussion on this topic so I won't clutter the thread after this I promise, sorry OP.

SSRI discontinuation syndrome from kratom is practically unheard of, I sure never had it and I used hefty amounts for years. Sure there was anxiety and depression, but that goes for all opioids, not to mention that kratom also contains adrenergic alkaloids which could also account for some of the depression from kratom withdrawal.

First you say it's a 5-ht2a agonist (well, serotonin agonist to be exact), then you correct it by saying it's a 5-ht2a antagonist...now it's a SSRI or SNRI? Just because you believe it's an SNRI/SSRI, doesn't make it so, and since there's apparently no evidence to support the claim, it shouldn't be said as fact IMO, don't take this personally.

Not that my accounts mean everything, but I think I would've developed serotonin syndrome so many times if this were the case, especially during times I would mix it with shroomahuasca (syrian rue and mushrooms), as well as aMT which also contains MAOI activity approaching the levels of harmaline, never once was there any interaction. Nor were there any brain zaps or symptoms of SNRI discontinuation syndrome when quitting kratom after being on 3x 8-10g doses per day for years, just 7 days of typical mu agonist withdrawal, with a large side of extreme restlessness

OP: It's hard to say what anyone who isn't me would like, but if I had to hazard a guess going by what info you provided, I would say chances are you won't like it, but of course I could be wrong. Kratom ingestion can be a pain for most, it carries a bodyload as well as a ceiling, and I can confirm that for me, I would occasionally get the aggression side effect from kratom...usually when I dosed to high.

 

[Stotched]

I've been taking UEI and Gold Reserve every 3-4 hours for the last 2 years, and I definitely get SNRI discontinuation symptoms. I know what these symptoms are and what they feel like, and I definitely get them when I quit. Sometimes I even wake up in the middle of the night and need to redose because of how crazy the brain zaps get. The only 2 recorded deaths from kratom were from people combining kratom with MDMA, and another one who combined it with Modafinil. so yes, there is something going on with serotonin and kratom. LSD and Weed both modulate serotonin, but you never hear about anyone Od'ing or getting SS from those? So obviously they can't be affecting serotonin right?

 

[LesFleursDuMal]

LSD and Weed both modulate serotonin, but you never hear about anyone Od'ing or getting SS from those? So obviously they can't be affecting serotonin right?

They do both have some effect on the serotonin system, but THC's modulation of serotonin seems to be very mild compared to LSD. Serotonin is just one neurotransmitter out of many which are modulated by THC, where as LSD's main sought-after effects stem from its intense action on serotonin.

To OP, 5_HT2A - Tramadol is in some ways similar to Kratom so I doubt you'll be blown away by the later. IMO Kratom is weak to the opioid-tolerant person, but on the other hand it is a relatively safe, easy to obtain, and legal. If you are partial to Oxycodone or hydrocodone, then stick with the semi-synthetic opiates that are also full-agonists at the mu receptor. They produce the euphoria most users are looking for. Be careful when using oxy, hydro, or any stronger opioid like these because they can potentially cause fatal overdoses the same way Heroin does.

 

[angel4208]

I have been taking Kratom for a week now, and gave it to other's, we all love it. It is getting us through the opiate withdrawals. I found a great site, that has quality kratom, fast delivery, and great prices. I'm so glad I found it.

 

[《Plasticity》]

@Stotched: So you finally made up your mind as to which way kratom affects serotonin huh? Look, all I was asking is for you to back up your claim with a single piece of evidence and if you can't, please don't go spreading that piece of information around like it's fact.

If you truely feel kratom has SNRI/SSRI activity that's fine, just keep it to yourself until it's been proven or preface your statement with "I believe" or "I feel" that kratom has SNRI activity, not "it does" because this just hasn't been proven and quite frankly, it seems more likely that alot of these comparisons to tramadol can be attributed to the wide variety of alkaloids making the experience more rough around the edges.

I know I said I wouldn't clutter up the thread anymore, so this time I'll keep my promise, again sorry OP. I'll NSFW the rest of my post.

NSFW:

I've been taking UEI and Gold Reserve every 3-4 hours for the last 2 years, and I definitely get SNRI discontinuation symptoms.

Real UEI and FST from the creator of these two extracts contain no mitragynine or kratom alkaloids at all with the exception of the base powder in the case of UEI (FST was tested by a VERY intelligent BL'er, there's also several little birdies that have shared some valuable info on this topic)

It's suspected to contain a very potent analog 30x stronger than morphine named Mitragynine Pseudoindoxyl, with confirmed delta and mu opioid activity, no mentions of SNRI activity associated with this compound... Comparing both UEI and FST to kratom is like comparing two different drugs altogether. These two extracts are still quite the controversial mystery though... Can't speak for Gold Reserve either, shit is expensive and inferior to genuine UEI IMO.

(I can dig up and PM some links if your interested on the subject)

The only 2 recorded deaths from kratom were from people combining kratom with MDMA, and another one who combined it with Modafinil.

Mind digging those up for me? Especially how the death was determined to be by any sort of SSRI/SNRI/monoamine interaction, or any interaction that suggests SSRI/SNRI activity was the culprit? There's only been three documented deaths (I'm sure there's more sketchy undocumented cases containing other drugs) and can't find any deaths attributed to Modafinil/kratom or MDMA/kratom. There was however a seizure when a SC dilaudid user took both modafinil and kratom in WD.

Since I don't have access to a university or library computer with access to the last article I'll just link it for those who do.

Anyways, let's take a look at the case below. You know, the case report where they try and blame kratom and propylhexadrine as the cause of death yet go on to say that the subject also morphine, promethazine, and acetaminophen in his system?

https://www.anoniem.org/?http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21219704

How about this report, just a bunch of deaths attributed to headshop products laced with O-desmethyl tramadol...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21513619

Like I said, the only thing I could find on the "deaths" you speak of is a case where an older man suffers a seizure from combining modafinil and kratom. Not only do both opioids and stimulants lower seizure threshold (yes, all opioids lower seizure threshold to some extent), but kratom also contains all sorts of adrenergics in itself so it comes as no surprised that the occasional seizure may occur given the right circumstances. Not to mention this is an isolated case and seizures associated with kratom consumption are not commonplace.

The patient was fine btw, no death, no mention of serotonin syndrome either.

For some reason I don't think you understand just how dangerous it would be to mix an MAOI with an SSRI/SNRI, comparing an LSD/cannabis combination to an SNRI/SSRI/MAOI combo shows that your uninformed on serotonin in general, I would advise you do some research as there's plenty of target sites for serotonin, and just because something "works on serotonin" doesn't mean it carries the same risks with combinations as a serotonin/norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor .

LSD is NOT an SSRI nor an SNRI, it can even be mixed with an MAOI in reasonable amounts like a good majority of serotonergic psychedelics. Find me some reports of serotonin syndrome from kratom and an MAOI consumption and maybe we could work from there, that would hint at SSRI/SNRI activity, but still not be conclusive evidence... just something for us to go on.

I won't even go into the whole SSRI/SNRI withdrawal from kratom either since again, this isn't the right place. But fyi, there are several reports of kratom doing very little for SSRI/SNRI withdrawal and after reading through just about all of the kratom megathreads, there have been no complaints of this phenomena. Seems kind of funny being that you were at one point, addicted to an SSRI, but I digress.

Here's the third documented death for anyone with university access, curious as to what this one claims

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1556-4029.12009/full

 

[5_HT2A]

They do both have some effect on the serotonin system, but THC's modulation of serotonin seems to be very mild compared to LSD. Serotonin is just one neurotransmitter out of many which are modulated by THC, where as LSD's main sought-after effects stem from its intense action on serotonin.

To OP, 5_HT2A - Tramadol is in some ways similar to Kratom so I doubt you'll be blown away by the later. IMO Kratom is weak to the opioid-tolerant person, but on the other hand it is a relatively safe, easy to obtain, and legal. If you are partial to Oxycodone or hydrocodone, then stick with the semi-synthetic opiates that are also full-agonists at the mu receptor. They produce the euphoria most users are looking for. Be careful when using oxy, hydro, or any stronger opioid like these because they can potentially cause fatal overdoses the same way Heroin does.

ok cool, thanks I'll probably just pick up some oxy

EDIT: lol i put hydros, i meant oxy

 

[5_HT2A]

@Stotched: So you finally made up your mind as to which way kratom affects serotonin huh? Look, all I was asking is for you to back up your claim with a single piece of evidence and if you can't, please don't go spreading that piece of information around like it's fact.

If you truely feel kratom has SNRI/SSRI activity that's fine, just keep it to yourself until it's been proven or preface your statement with "I believe" or "I feel" that kratom has SNRI activity, not "it does" because this just hasn't been proven and quite frankly, it seems more likely that alot of these comparisons to tramadol can be attributed to the wide variety of alkaloids making the experience more rough around the edges.

I know I said I wouldn't clutter up the thread anymore, so this time I'll keep my promise, again sorry OP. I'll NSFW the rest of my post.

NSFW:

Real UEI and FST from the creator of these two extracts contain no mitragynine or kratom alkaloids at all with the exception of the base powder in the case of UEI (FST was tested by a VERY intelligent BL'er, there's also several little birdies that have shared some valuable info on this topic)

It's suspected to contain a very potent analog 30x stronger than morphine named Mitragynine Pseudoindoxyl, with confirmed delta and mu opioid activity, no mentions of SNRI activity associated with this compound... Comparing both UEI and FST to kratom is like comparing two different drugs altogether. These two extracts are still quite the controversial mystery though... Can't speak for Gold Reserve either, shit is expensive and inferior to genuine UEI IMO.

(I can dig up and PM some links if your interested on the subject)



Mind digging those up for me? Especially how the death was determined to be by any sort of SSRI/SNRI/monoamine interaction, or any interaction that suggests SSRI/SNRI activity was the culprit? There's only been three documented deaths (I'm sure there's more sketchy undocumented cases containing other drugs) and can't find any deaths attributed to Modafinil/kratom or MDMA/kratom. There was however a seizure when a SC dilaudid user took both modafinil and kratom in WD.

Since I don't have access to a university or library computer with access to the last article I'll just link it for those who do.

Anyways, let's take a look at the case below. You know, the case report where they try and blame kratom and propylhexadrine as the cause of death yet go on to say that the subject also morphine, promethazine, and acetaminophen in his system?

https://www.anoniem.org/?http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21219704

How about this report, just a bunch of deaths attributed to headshop products laced with O-desmethyl tramadol...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21513619

Like I said, the only thing I could find on the "deaths" you speak of is a case where an older man suffers a seizure from combining modafinil and kratom. Not only do both opioids and stimulants lower seizure threshold (yes, all opioids lower seizure threshold to some extent), but kratom also contains all sorts of adrenergics in itself so it comes as no surprised that the occasional seizure may occur given the right circumstances. Not to mention this is an isolated case and seizures associated with kratom consumption are not commonplace.

The patient was fine btw, no death, no mention of serotonin syndrome either.

For some reason I don't think you understand just how dangerous it would be to mix an MAOI with an SSRI/SNRI, comparing an LSD/cannabis combination to an SNRI/SSRI/MAOI combo shows that your uninformed on serotonin in general, I would advise you do some research as there's plenty of target sites for serotonin, and just because something "works on serotonin" doesn't mean it carries the same risks with combinations as a serotonin/norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor .

LSD is NOT an SSRI nor an SNRI, it can even be mixed with an MAOI in reasonable amounts like a good majority of serotonergic psychedelics. Find me some reports of serotonin syndrome from kratom and an MAOI consumption and maybe we could work from there, that would hint at SNRI activity, but still not be conclusive evidence... just something for us to go on.

I won't even go into the wholeSSRI/SNRI withdrawal from kratom either since again, this isn't the right place. But fyi, there are several reports of kratom doing very little for SSRI/SNRI withdrawal and after reading through just about all of the kratom megathreads, there have been no complaints of this phenomena. Seems kind of funny being that you were at one point, addicted to an SSRI, but I digress.

Here's the third documented death for anyone with university access, curious as to what this one claims

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1556-4029.12009/full

No worries about the clutter, I appreciate the info mate

 

[5_HT2A]

I have been taking Kratom for a week now, and gave it to other's, we all love it. It is getting us through the opiate withdrawals. I found a great site, that has quality kratom, fast delivery, and great prices. I'm so glad I found it.

Do you get euphoria out of it? So far I haven't, but I'll keep increasing dose until I find it (if I can even get any euphoria at all).

 

[5_HT2A]

Tried like half an ounce, was motivated and energetic for about an hour and a half before I threw everything up and left with tramadol like dysphoria. Guess kratom is not for me, but I'll try to capsule the 1.5 ounce I have left.

 

[《Plasticity》]

Sounds like you took too much, a half oz is way too much kratom for your first go, what's your opioid tolerance like? If it's low your doses should be more in the 4-8g range. If you do indeed have a low tolerance and your needing a half oz to get euphoric effects I would look into a new vendor, it takes time to find a sweet spot, but once you do you should be able to find a balance between the euphoric effects and the side-effects.

Although it seems very possible that you just won't like kratom, I would lower dose by 50% and try it again. If it's not enough then up the dose by a gram or two, if it's making you feel sick lower the dose by a gram or two. Higher doses don't really increase the euphoria, just the negatives IME. Even when my habit was at it's peak I don't think I ever went over 10g and that was with multiple times per day, daily use.

 

[Stotched]

Captain kratom

until you have proof that Kratom doesn't have SNRI properties, why don't you keep it to yourself then! That goes both ways buddy.