Hate: An Apology

[modern buddha]

I feel that no better answer to all of this could be given than that of Cleanthes' dismissal of the skeptic (see hume's dialogues on natural religion) can be given here.

you are pretty much disingenuous about all of this because i'm pretty damn sure you're doing all of the things you're trying to dissuade us from doing. to be honest, the only viable option under your purported perspective would seem to be to kill yourself.

This is not about "look who's talking". That's an informal fallacy of reasoning. I am simply describing my own observations of life. Whether or not I actually follow them is a different discussion altogether.

Every person I have encountered in my lifetime so far is "working far too many hours" just so they can live in an apartment or have a car. Do we need these things? Not exactly; you can live in say a very small home/trailer/mobile home/ranch house for less than it takes to rent an apartment. A friend of mine works on average 70 hours a week. 14 hour days. What does she get out of it? Why is she still working there?

My own mother and stepdad work between 45 and 55 hours a week. My mom comes home each night (or evening) stressed and wired. Yeah, we have a nice house and some extra things in the backyard and live on the decent side of town, but I'd be more than happy living in a smaller home and having the opportunity to see them more often. My current situation does not dictate how I feel about how life is to be lived.

What I'm trying to say is lightening the load of your life might help you have the extra time to see things in a different perspective. Leading back to the topic, when you use the extra time you gain by lightening your load, you can learn to control your urges to be angry and hateful (at the very least. However, who knows if you'll be able to fully control your urges. Some things just get to us.) Finally, by simplifying life to a point where you actually have more free time than time at work, you have more time to do the things you like to do (which may or may not keep you out of trouble, but certainly gives you the opportunity to change your life).

 

[artic]

I think that the point that is being made here is that material gain isn't the be-all and end-all of life. There is a lot more to being happy than playing one-up with the neighbors. We tend to work ourselves into an early grave for want of material possessions that, in the end, do not significantly improve our quality of life. You could work just long and hard enough to pay off a bit of land and a house, and then work just hard enough to grow your food, maintain the property, and pay your taxes. You could spend a lot less of your life working endlessly for things you don't need, and a lot more time enjoying the things you have.

The same can be said for people in your life. I will always help out someone in need if I can, and I have plenty of friends, but I don't rely on any of them for anything. As soon as you need someone to help you out they will just fuckn bail, so what's the point? I'm not going to spend a bunch of my time and energy making sure that everything is okay for somebody who wouldn't do the same for me. I don't need them, or anything they have to offer, so I don't miss them when they are gone, or hate them for it. Sucks to be them next time they need a good friend.

Yes, Vader, that is the source of my pessimism. But honestly, I think it takes a true optimist to see that everything is full of shit, and still believe it is for the best to continue.

 

[kaywholed]

ying and yang....

would love be the same without hate?

 

[Z Y G G Y]

For some reason I don't think that love and hate are opposites. Maybe love and dislike. I don't hate things that are opposite of the things I love. I accept them because they are part of this world.

World is not all black and white like that, at least not to me. Love is not white and hate is not black. They are both already in the gray zone.

I think feeling passionate about anything is setting yourself up for disappointment. When you love or hate, what you are really feeling is a desire to control. You want to make what you love flourish, and beat down what you hate. However, everything you love will eventually decay and die, and you really have no power to prevent the spread of what you hate. Its delusional to think that you have any control over the world, your fate, the fate of your loved ones, etc. Que cera, cera. Drop the reins, let life happen.

My favorite post by this user.

 

[Z Y G G Y]

I think that the point that is being made here is that material gain isn't the be-all and end-all of life. There is a lot more to being happy than playing one-up with the neighbors. We tend to work ourselves into an early grave for want of material possessions that, in the end, do not significantly improve our quality of life. You could work just long and hard enough to pay off a bit of land and a house, and then work just hard enough to grow your food, maintain the property, and pay your taxes. You could spend a lot less of your life working endlessly for things you don't need, and a lot more time enjoying the things you have.

The same can be said for people in your life. I will always help out someone in need if I can, and I have plenty of friends, but I don't rely on any of them for anything. As soon as you need someone to help you out they will just fuckn bail, so what's the point? I'm not going to spend a bunch of my time and energy making sure that everything is okay for somebody who wouldn't do the same for me. I don't need them, or anything they have to offer, so I don't miss them when they are gone, or hate them for it. Sucks to be them next time they need a good friend.

Yes, Vader, that is the source of my pessimism. But honestly, I think it takes a true optimist to see that everything is full of shit, and still believe it is for the best to continue.

Seems that you have been hurt a lot, used by people who you gave a lot to. I learned that if you do something good to someone you can never expect to get anything back from that person. I know easier said than done.

Even to this day I think about these types of situations where I have been used. I often just help people spontaneously, but now when I think about it in a lot of these situations people were just in it to get whatever they needed from me and then bailed. In my naive innocence I didn't see it and then when I needed the smallest things from that person they stopped giving a shit. My part was done to them. I know how it feels and it's not a good feeling.

What is the solution for this? There are signs from the beginning. Just being more aware of them and trying to read people intentions. But closing yourself off is the worst.

You'll get paid by the person you least expect it from. Love the people you have in your life and respect and love the shit out of them. The users will get theirs.

There are a lot of selfless, great people in this world. Those are the ones you want around. With these kind of folks whatever you give will be given back times a million. I am very lucky that I have a few friends like that. Actually I just baptised by daughter and her god mother is just that kind of person.

 

[vegan]

To love something is to hate its opposite

(sorry, haven't read the whole thread, as usual)
don't feel like writing a book about it, but simply put : that's not true. think about it again. find counterexamples yourself


hate is a waste of time and energy

it makes you feel bad
and it is also potentially negative for others too

there's a very simple way out :
choose not to hate

you will be the first winner
all the frustration, negativity, etc. that go with hate will disappear from your life

you don't have to hate war (etc.) to reject it actively
hate is only one specific feeling on the spectrum of "not wishing it to be"

but it's a feeling that is harmful to you too
you can keep loving what you love without having to hate anything
you'll feel much freer

 

[Jamshyd]

Those who know me personally (or staff who followed my recent postings in the staff forum) may have seen the recent dilemma I went through and how it unfolded.

I have not known - truly known - hate until very recently. My recent experiences (sober, beketted, traveling, and, at one point, self-harm) initiated a movement in my consciousness deeper and deeper into exploring recesses of the ego that I have previously been unconscious of, hatred being very very deep in said recesses. Prior to that, I somehow, naively, imagined myself immune to hate. This process was self-propelling and I have been learning lesson after lesson since then, reaching what seemed to be turning point of sorts this last month.

Long story short, it was ONLY after I dared considering that I hated my parents that I became aware of the fact that I hated myself because I believed that I hated my parents. Don't get me wrong - I have frequently said "I hate myself," but never really know why or how. Once this awareness arose, I went a step further and dared to confess to myself about such hatred and subsequently dare to experience it. (I mention my parents and myself because these are the two most influential subjects in my emotional life).

And once I reached the bottom of this abyss, believing for a moment that I truly hated and that it was ok, it seemed that there is nothing but hatred in my world, I saw a tiny shaft of light: the light of Love.

In all of humanity's stories, there are elements of love an hate.

Archetypally, however, Love wins over hate, but only after cataclysm, when hate appears to have won. For example: the Persians believed that Ahriman (evil, hatred, lies) will reach a point where he appears to have won over, only to be defeated by the infinite Love of Ormazd (Light, love).

Or take the Gnostics (or Manichaeans, or Mandeans), or the Jains on the Dharmic side, all of whom believed that in our impure age of hatred, the preservation of purity by love for all that is alive and the avoidance of (hateful) impurity is the way to salvation.

All this, and much more, is accomplished through the MEMORY of the fact that Love is infinite while hate is not.

But enough of this - back to my experience: following that shaft of light, I have discovered that my apparent hatred can actually be dissolved into nothing through forgiveness, which I have found to be the result of a level-headed arbitration between Love and hate, which will invariably resolve in Love being right and hate being illusory.

Ever since I started forgiving myself, I found that I can forgive my parents - precisely because they forgave me! And once that happened, all other hatred in my life appeared trivial, and I am currently in the process of arbitrating and applying this newly-learnt forgiveness.

---

I share this experience not to preach, but simply to tell my story with hate.

I learnt that denying hate will only result in more hate. Hate is absolutely real, it exists; it MUST be experienced and acknowledged before it can be put on the stand before the arbitrator against Love.

I learnt that the only way to resolve hate is to rationally measure it against love to discover that love is correct and hate is not.

This is the most difficult process I have encountered in my life as of yet. But it is also absolutely life-changing.

Sorry if this sounds a bit looney.

 

[malakaix]

I learnt that denying hate will only result in more hate. Hate is absolutely real, it exists; it MUST be experienced and acknowledged before it can be put on the stand before the arbitrator against Love.

I absolutely agree with this statement.

It was not long ago that i had a pranic healing done to me by a healer, the weeks following this i was in incredible hate at virtually everything. It was distressing because for years i had believed, even convinced myself that i was above my own anger..

When the reality of the situation was, that i was repressing my anger which had built a well of unresolved 'hate' buried within me, and i had no way of acknowledging this because i had so masterfully convinced myself that my own spiritual awareness was void of such emotion.

I now understand that this must be experienced and expressed to be 'known' before it can be dealt with unconditional love.

 

[SpinOutOfControl]

All you need is love. Hate is not constructive. Live by setting examples and giving positive influence. If people still don't follow forget about it. It's no use to you or anyone else to keep on hating, it doesn't accomplish anything.

 

[swilow]

Non duality.

 

[Dedbeet]

In the end, it's very simple...

There isn't a soul on the planet who isn't in the same boat we are.

Everybody on the planet is 'inside'... looking out.... through their eyes.

Everybody. Everybody.

 

[swilow]

^Doesn't that limit empathy only to other humans though?

I don't believe love and hate are opposites, or even really related beyond being extremes of emotion. To my mind, love is something which (in its purest form) is impossible to control. We can love ideas/people/things even if we don't want to. Hate seems a lot more cerebral. In that sense, hate is a very human emotion; I don't believe its actually a real emotion. Its more of a reaction then emotion.

 

[sssssssssss]

^^ if they are the extremes of emotion would that not make them opposites? a complete 180 in all directions on the xyz plane, as far away as possible from eachother..

i feel like youre just telling yourself that you cant control hating something. its much easier to hate something and turn your head at it than to love something and be creative to make it work out
you can totes condition yourself to not love something unless youre jesus or something
all emotions are human emotions, nothing else percieves quite like we do.

i dont think you can express empathy to anything else besides a human... honestly i dont even believe in true empathy. your emotions are private.

 

[Jamshyd]

Non duality.

Ok, and what if it is neither duality nor non-duality?

(I am not being pedantic; just doing my usual thing with words ).

 

[swilow]

^It is(n't). Thats actually a zen koan-like idea there Jammy

I find it futile to identify everything by their opposites. It misses so much grey area.

Like a psychedelic trip; the experience of ego shredding can be terryfying and unutterably rewarding. In that sense, identifying terror as the opposite of, say, safe/calm, we miss the complete essence of the experience as perceived by the brain. Terror IS terryfying, but safety and calmness may lie within.

It is helpful to try and understand what absolutes there are in life; there just doesn't appear to be any. No definitve good/evil, love/hate, light/dark. Makes the world very nebulous and reveals the non-real nature of reality.

That said, I would never rule out the existence of absolutes...

^^ if they are the extremes of emotion would that not make them opposites? a complete 180 in all directions on the xyz plane, as far away as possible from eachother..

Not necesarily. Sadness is an emotional extreme, but its not the opposite of hatred. A very pedantic response on my behalf; I apologise

Love and hate are probably more similar then different; each describes a preoccupation with something "other", an intimacy of sorts with this "other" and (most likely) an overexagerration of the importance of this "other".

Emotion cannot be plotted on a graph, so any space/time reference is lacking. Emotion is an experience, beyond time. As I said, it helps us to define things by their opposite number, but how then can we desribe anything? I think the only powers I believe in are of creation and destruction; and both of them can be the same.

i feel like youre just telling yourself that you cant control hating something. its much easier to hate something and turn your head at it than to love something and be creative to make it work out

You've completely reversed what I mean, but we are both right. I said that love feels like a compulsion of sorts; hate is a thought process.

To me, at least, love is a whole lot easier then hate (and no, I'm not claiming any saintly virtue)...I value my peace of mind- I've hated many things, but none of this has ever rewarded me with anything but feelings of anger, resentment, difficulty sleeping...The things I love make my life worth living, and so it makes sense to try and love as many things as possible. I've gone as far as hating hatred; there is creative power even in destruction, but ultimately, I find hatred to be so worthless and forgettable, I question its natural existence.

But- to truly know something, you need to be able to hate and love it. I make a lot of music, and eventually I "hate" each composition; because I hear it over and over, refining it, it becomes a burden that I wish to part with- therein lies the creative power of a destructive emotion. I can never appreciate my own songs; but I still continue creating them. I love creating music, but I hate the ending creation. Or, more aptly, I love creating music. I don't think about the neccesary "hate".

It most certainly is easier to turn your head though. Not so much with love, in my own experience...

all emotions are human emotions, nothing else percieves quite like we do.

You can't ever know this for sure.

i dont think you can express empathy to anything else besides a human... honestly i dont even believe in true empathy. your emotions are private.

Fair enough. Though- true empathy- thats another absolute, and so it makes sense to me that you cannot prove that it exists. Thats similar to how I feel about hate.

 

[sssssssssss]

sadness is a level of hate you show towards a situation that didnt go accordingly.
ive always agreed that hate and love are both needed.

i dont think extreme happiness is very healthy either. if you were having absolute love, you would disreguard everyone except for yourself in my opinion. your life would be complete, and you wouldnt need anyone or anything else, and therefore making others feel unimportant and less happy.

maybe the universe has a certian level of emotion, that when someone feels somewhat happier, another person feels slightly sadder, or maybe it divides it up b/w multiple people.

 

[modern buddha]

maybe the universe has a certian level of emotion, that when someone feels somewhat happier, another person feels slightly sadder, or maybe it divides it up b/w multiple people.

It is said that there is a constant balance in the Universe and can, therefore, be broken down into separate components: there is a constant balance here, meaning each "here" that we currently are a part of. There is a balance in my "here", where when I may say something meant to be funny and laugh to myself, it is interpreted by another "here" as mean and the balance quickly shifts to discontent or anger on the other side.

In addition, we, in our own "here"s, have balances. One day, we might be quite joyous, the next, quite upset. It is said hate is conquered by love, but the overbearing love will bring the balance to re-shift itself again. This, of course, is the normal "love" in which we hug and kiss and try to be generally nice to others and ourselves. I think my own version of love is holding a sense of constant neutrality, not upsetting (in either direction) your own balance and therefore, minimally upsetting the overall balance of another "here".

 

[Vader]

maybe the universe has a certian level of emotion, that when someone feels somewhat happier, another person feels slightly sadder, or maybe it divides it up b/w multiple people.

Reminds me of that Will Self book, "The Quantity Theory of Insanity", where he expounds the notion that a fixed proportion of people are sane at any time, and that it's effectively a zero-sum game where no-one can become sane without someone else going crazy.

 

[Jamshyd]

^ I hope he didn't mean that seriously (much less publish a whole book about it as such!), otherwise he'd be living proof of its sister-theory: that the universe's silliness accountants aren't as competent as those responsible for sanity!

 

[sssssssssss]

i think love and hate are both very needed emotions that you can chose to keep private within yourself or not

you decide your actions, not your emotions.

loving something, could mean you hate its opposite, but that doesnt mean you should kill it.
if you killed everything that suggested something but love for something you do love, what would be the point of loving it. it would just be. without a contridiction, it wouldnt matter anymore and your feeling towards it would be nuetral.