Hate: An Apology

[Vader]

I feel that hatred is much maligned, and unduly. I am often criticised for being "a hater"; I feel that it is impossible to love without hating. To love something is to hate its opposite. To love justice is to hate injustice, to love peace is to hate war, to love knowledge is to hate ignorance. I feel that hate is valuable, and that we ought to embrace it rather than trying to excise it from our consciousnesses. I feel that there is something dishonest about shying away from hatred as the necessary counterpart of love.

However, I am sure that there are many people who think we should hate nothing but hatred itself, and I would like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

 

[Jabberwocky]

"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

Sorry, I had to.

Hate can be consuming like a lot of other passions and I think the sort of hate that causes one to not attend someone's wedding one has been invited to is a very different thing then a hatred that would cause someone to risk their livelihood or their beloved just for a chance to possibly screw over someone they despised.

Some people with reservations about hate have a reservation about all passions. Some see hatred as bad but see other passions as good. I think expressing hatred is something that requires a lot of discretion. It also is a passion I don't want to keep rekindling because I don't find it all that pleasant. At the same time if other passions are ipso facto legitimate I think hatred is also legitimate.

 

[Vader]

"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

Sorry, I had to.

Yeah, I knew it was coming.

 

[artic]

I think feeling passionate about anything is setting yourself up for disappointment. When you love or hate, what you are really feeling is a desire to control. You want to make what you love flourish, and beat down what you hate. However, everything you love will eventually decay and die, and you really have no power to prevent the spread of what you hate. Its delusional to think that you have any control over the world, your fate, the fate of your loved ones, etc. Que cera, cera. Drop the reins, let life happen.

 

[modern buddha]

I think feeling passionate about anything is setting yourself up for disappointment. When you love or hate, what you are really feeling is a desire to control. You want to make what you love flourish, and beat down what you hate. However, everything you love will eventually decay and die, and you really have no power to prevent the spread of what you hate. Its delusional to think that you have any control over the world, your fate, the fate of your loved ones, etc. Que cera, cera. Drop the reins, let life happen.

I like this post. The only way to love is to love everything, the good, the "bad" and the ugly.

 

[Vader]

The only way to love is to love everything, the good, the "bad" and the ugly.

That seems to be a self-defeating statement; if you love everything, you must love hate.

I think feeling passionate about anything is setting yourself up for disappointment. When you love or hate, what you are really feeling is a desire to control. You want to make what you love flourish, and beat down what you hate. However, everything you love will eventually decay and die, and you really have no power to prevent the spread of what you hate. Its delusional to think that you have any control over the world, your fate, the fate of your loved ones, etc. Que cera, cera. Drop the reins, let life happen.

That seems incredibly depressing to me. Passion is a large part of what gives life value, particularly passion (romantic or Platonic) for other people. I am passionate about science, philosophy, backgammon, psychedelics. Of course I want to see those things flourish; I love them. Passively letting your life slip through your fingers for fear of disappointment seems like a terrible shame. I should stop loving my girlfriend because we will both eventually die? No, I should redouble my love for her because our relationship is transient! It might be delusional to think that we have any control over the world, but we certainly have (at least) a very convincing illusion of it. To me, that alone is worthwhile.

 

[artic]

I'm not really saying that you should give up, or completely disconnect from reality. I'm saying you gotta accept the basic truth that life is unpredictable, and often cruel. You can't control weather something will turn out ultimately for the better or worse, you can only control the amount of your emotional investment.

When you are passionate about something, everything feels awesome when things are going well, but when things go bad they go really, really bad. The more you care about someone, the more it hurts when they inevitably screw you over. The higher the highs, the lower the lows. So yeah, the good trips are worth the risk of the bad trips, but you still gotta be careful with a high dose. Ya digg? I kinda think that the only way to really be at harmony with your surroundings is to surrender the impulse to change and control the world. Take the door that is open instead of trying to beat your way through the wall. Sometimes it is for the best to give up and start over from scratch. That drive to see things through to the bitter end is just pride fuckn with you.

I had another thought on hate in general: In any disagreement, you always have to consider the possibility that you are wrong. The other side obviously believes just as passionately as you that they are right, and that doesn't make it so. Even if you think you have all the facts, there may be something you overlooked, or even just another legitimate point of view. In order to hate, you have to think that your belief is above question, which is never true.

 

[modern buddha]

That seems to be a self-defeating statement; if you love everything, you must love hate.

That seems incredibly depressing to me. Passion is a large part of what gives life value, particularly passion (romantic or Platonic) for other people. I am passionate about science, philosophy, backgammon, psychedelics. Of course I want to see those things flourish; I love them. Passively letting your life slip through your fingers for fear of disappointment seems like a terrible shame. I should stop loving my girlfriend because we will both eventually die? No, I should redouble my love for her because our relationship is transient! It might be delusional to think that we have any control over the world, but we certainly have (at least) a very convincing illusion of it. To me, that alone is worthwhile.

Yes, you love hate, but you love it in the form of people expressing it. Can animals express hate? Can trees? Can Mother Nature in general? Not really. Only humans can express hate and when you learn to endure the negativity that people hold against one another (or maybe you!) your emotional investment in the opinions of others goes out the window, for humans do think negatively of one another at times.

Moreover, yes, you love those things. But everyone has something they like that they wish to keep as "theirs". To hold onto while everything else is okay to go to shit. Think about it: we love what we love... The next person probably doesn't like the same things. You are okay with letting his likes go to waste, just as long as what you like stays constant and lasting? Seems selfish to the average person and when things don't go your way, when someone else voices their opinion that your likes aren't worthwhile, it makes you mad. Angry. That, in turn, turns into hate for someone, when given enough fuel to make the fire rise.

See the spiral effect taking place?

I had another thought on hate in general: In any disagreement, you always have to consider the possibility that you are wrong. The other side obviously believes just as passionately as you that they are right, and that doesn't make it so. Even if you think you have all the facts, there may be something you overlooked, or even just another legitimate point of view. In order to hate, you have to think that your belief is above question, which is never true.

But there is no right or wrong. There are only choices and consequences, some more severe than others.

 

[slimvictor]

To love something is to hate its opposite. To love justice is to hate injustice, to love peace is to hate war, to love knowledge is to hate ignorance.

I cannot possibly agree with this.
It seems to be a world view that I cannot even really understand, let alone embrace.

I would say that love knowledge, but I could not possibly say that I hate ignorance.
I love working to help people (including myself) overcome ignorance.
I try to avoid ignorance.
But hating it? Kinda fanatical, if you ask me.

I love bread. I don't hate the opposite of bread.
I love my family I do not hate those not in my family.
I love peace. I really, really dislike war, but it makes me sad, more than angry. Is this hatred? Not the way I understand hatred.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Hatred could be akin to "I do not want" or "make it go away".

A hatred of a bad boss would likely never never get to the intensity it does but for frequent contact and the fact that the bad boss is making decisions that affect a person. I have no particular hatred of music types I don't like, but if my neighbors are blaring them through my apartment walls I will experience a strong opinion about things that didn't matter at all before.

I think aversion to some things is natural and good. A hatred that persists once the offending intrusion into my space or my life has moved on is likely a waste of energy. Some intrusions likely warrant a certain vigilance after they are gone nonetheless.

 

[Vader]

I'm not really saying that you should give up, or completely disconnect from reality. I'm saying you gotta accept the basic truth that life is unpredictable, and often cruel. You can't control weather something will turn out ultimately for the better or worse, you can only control the amount of your emotional investment.

Life is predictable, though. If I work hard, cultivate relationships, strive for my goals, there is a much greater chance of me achieving them than if I do nothing.

The more you care about someone, the more it hurts when they inevitably screw you over.

I think that this sums up your pessimism. Not all interpersonal relationships end in betrayal, far from it.

In order to hate, you have to think that your belief is above question, which is never true.

Why? I don't see the truth in that.

Only humans can express hate and when you learn to endure the negativity that people hold against one another (or maybe y[ou!) your emotional investment in the opinions of others goes out the window, for humans do think negatively of one another at times.

I would say that enduring and loving something are mutually exclusive. "enduring" can obviously refer to any kind of persistence, but in this sense I would say that it has an negative emotional connotation. To love hatred, you must not only endure it, but embrace it. Which is exactly what I was asking for in the first place!

But there is no right or wrong. There are only choices and consequences, some more severe than others.

I disagree, but let's not get sidetracked.

I would say that love knowledge, but I could not possibly say that I hate ignorance.
I love working to help people (including myself) overcome ignorance.
I try to avoid ignorance.
But hating it? Kinda fanatical, if you ask me.

So you avoid it at all costs, and wish to eliminate it from existence, but do not hate it? I think we're talking at cross purposes here, as I understand it you do hate ignorance.

I love bread. I don't hate the opposite of bread.
I love my family I do not hate those not in my family.
I love peace. I really, really dislike war, but it makes me sad, more than angry. Is this hatred? Not the way I understand hatred.

Well, the opposite of bread is a hard thing to imagine, so let's avoid that one (though I would say that you hate hunger). You hate that which would destroy or undo your family, do you not? And yes, I would say that you probably do hate war. I know how passionately you feel about legalising cannabis; do you not hate prohibition of the drug?

I think aversion to some things is natural and good. A hatred that persists once the offending intrusion into my space or my life has moved on is likely a waste of energy. Some intrusions likely warrant a certain vigilance after they are gone nonetheless.

Yes. I think there is a commonly held belief that we ought not be averse to anything, and I suppose that this is what I was challenging.

 

[slimvictor]

So you avoid it at all costs, and wish to eliminate it from existence, but do not hate it? I think we're talking at cross purposes here, as I understand it you do hate ignorance.

Maybe we are referring to the same thing. My idea of hatred is something like active repulsion to the point of exuding venom. It necessarily involves the active creation of negative energy. But this is not at all how I feel about ignorance, which I believe to be an unconquerable enemy.

Well, the opposite of bread is a hard thing to imagine, so let's avoid that one (though I would say that you hate hunger). You hate that which would destroy or undo your family, do you not? And yes, I would say that you probably do hate war. I know how passionately you feel about legalising cannabis; do you not hate prohibition of the drug?

Let me explain it this way: when I get some good bread, I am really happy (good bread is hard to find in Japan). If I don't have bread, I am usually happy eating rice or noodles. If I can't get food, I go with the flow and embrace the hunger (at least, to the extent that I have gone hungry in my life, which has never exceeded 5 days without food - can't say what I'd feel if I had no food for a month).
I take what comes and always try to embrace it (though I am not always successful).
If I have no time for breakfast, I think of it as a mini-fast.
If I have time, I enjoy breakfast.
No opposites, no hatred.

I feel that prohibition of cannabis is ignorant and an unfair way to control people's freedom for the benefit of the alcohol and tobacco industries. I really dislike it, but I do not actively hate it, as I feel that creation of negative energy does not help things. I feel sad about it, and sometimes somewhat depressed. But is this the same as hating it?

I feel that I don't hate anything or anyone.
Maybe, if "hatred" is defined differently, I am full of hatred.
But I think that such a definition is missing the mark.
I have met people who are full of hatred, by my standards, and they are very, very different from me.

 

[slimvictor]

Hatred could be akin to "I do not want" or "make it go away".

Maybe we could define it that way, but I feel that the hatred that Vader referred to in the initial post seems very different than this. (It seems more like hatred as I defined it in my previous post.)

 

[Vader]

Maybe we are referring to the same thing. My idea of hatred is something like active repulsion to the point of exuding venom. It necessarily involves the active creation of negative energy. But this is not at all how I feel about ignorance, which I believe to be an unconquerable enemy.

I think that you're conflating hatred with its associated passions. The idea of love is often one of passion and wild abandon; but I think that if we consider, for instance, an old couple who have been married for many years, we will find that there is little passion left in the relationship. They still love each other, though. I think that, in a similar way, we can separate hating something from feeling angry or spiteful of it. Perhaps I am using "hate" in an inappropriate way; maybe what I was intending was an apology of dislike.

 

[modern buddha]

Life is predictable, though. If I work hard, cultivate relationships, strive for my goals, there is a much greater chance of me achieving them than if I do nothing.

Life is predictable to a certain point. It's when something goes haywire or contrary to what you're hoping or predicting to happen when you lose your cool. When you let go of trying to hold predictions, life becomes more exciting and less... well, predictable!

And yes, there is a greater chance of "achieving" your goals if you work "for" them. But you're working for something that you don't have yet. Why bother wasting your time by trying to get more? If you succeed, the reward is only temporary for how long you continue to work to KEEP what you "achieved". If you fail, then you lose your cool.

In addition, isn't hatred a term we use to describe someone who is unhappy with his/her current situation? They hate the things (or persons, or ideas) that are contrary to their beliefs when it hurdles them over the top of their tolerance threshold. When we believe in "good" and "bad", we set ourselves up for disappointment. Because WE know "what's right", but maybe the next person thinks a little differently.

 

[Vader]

Life is predictable to a certain point. It's when something goes haywire or contrary to what you're hoping or predicting to happen when you lose your cool. When you let go of trying to hold predictions, life becomes more exciting and less... well, predictable!

You make a huge number of predictions every day which turn out to be true. I know not to put my hand in the fire because it is hot. I know that if I don't go to work then I won't have money and therefore won't have food. Life might be more exciting if I gave up those predictions, but not much fun. No-one can really give up prediction, it's a pretty silly recommendation tbh.

And yes, there is a greater chance of "achieving" your goals if you work "for" them. But you're working for something that you don't have yet. Why bother wasting your time by trying to get more? If you succeed, the reward is only temporary for how long you continue to work to KEEP what you "achieved". If you fail, then you lose your cool.

How is striving for an achievable goal a waste of time? Even very minor achievements like excreting in the toilet and cooking omelettes require some effort. They certainly aren't wastes of time. Achievements often do not require constant maintenance; once you've paid off the mortgage, the house is yours.

 

[modern buddha]

You make a huge number of predictions every day which turn out to be true. I know not to put my hand in the fire because it is hot. I know that if I don't go to work then I won't have money and therefore won't have food. Life might be more exciting if I gave up those predictions, but not much fun. No-one can really give up prediction, it's a pretty silly recommendation tbh.

How is striving for an achievable goal a waste of time? Even very minor achievements like excreting in the toilet and cooking omelettes require some effort. They certainly aren't wastes of time. Achievements often do not require constant maintenance; once you've paid off the mortgage, the house is yours.

Of course there is a difference between small achievable goals and larger ones. The larger ones are the ones I am referring to. Long term goals, if you will. I think a better way of explaining would be to consider your desires instead of goals. Your desires are what keep you glued to the wheel. You have a desire to buy a nice house. First, you consider what constitutes a nice house. Second, you have to work for that house. And if you have a really nice house, you work damn hard, going through drama every day at work and bullshit that you don't want to be a part of (ending my sentence in a preposition).

So you'll go to work for 8 or even more hours a day so you can have that thing you desired. You go through more negative stuff than positives (more often than not, unless someone just pays you and never once asks you for anything) so you can spend the remaining six hours of your waking, active day in a nice house. You work more and spend less of your time enjoying the thing you're working to keep. Which brings me to my conclusion: I believe this is a waste of your time. 8 hours at work, 6 hours at home. Oh and don't forget getting ready for work. You spend so much time earning money so you can have the things you want.

And that point which you bring up about making predictions is not quite accurate. That is you learning about your environment. Learning is not the same thing as trying to predict the future.

 

[Max Power]

Why do I feel as though many philosophical topics ultimately fall under the category of semantics?

 

[IamMe90]

Of course there is a difference between small achievable goals and larger ones. The larger ones are the ones I am referring to. Long term goals, if you will. I think a better way of explaining would be to consider your desires instead of goals. Your desires are what keep you glued to the wheel. You have a desire to buy a nice house. First, you consider what constitutes a nice house. Second, you have to work for that house. And if you have a really nice house, you work damn hard, going through drama every day at work and bullshit that you don't want to be a part of (ending my sentence in a preposition).

So you'll go to work for 8 or even more hours a day so you can have that thing you desired. You go through more negative stuff than positives (more often than not, unless someone just pays you and never once asks you for anything) so you can spend the remaining six hours of your waking, active day in a nice house. You work more and spend less of your time enjoying the thing you're working to keep. Which brings me to my conclusion: I believe this is a waste of your time. 8 hours at work, 6 hours at home. Oh and don't forget getting ready for work. You spend so much time earning money so you can have the things you want.

And that point which you bring up about making predictions is not quite accurate. That is you learning about your environment. Learning is not the same thing as trying to predict the future.

I feel that no better answer to all of this could be given than that of Cleanthes' dismissal of the skeptic (see hume's dialogues on natural religion) can be given here.

you are pretty much disingenuous about all of this because i'm pretty damn sure you're doing all of the things you're trying to dissuade us from doing. to be honest, the only viable option under your purported perspective would seem to be to kill yourself.

 

[slimvictor]

Of course there is a difference between small achievable goals and larger ones. The larger ones are the ones I am referring to. Long term goals, if you will. I think a better way of explaining would be to consider your desires instead of goals. Your desires are what keep you glued to the wheel. You have a desire to buy a nice house. First, you consider what constitutes a nice house. Second, you have to work for that house. And if you have a really nice house, you work damn hard, going through drama every day at work and bullshit that you don't want to be a part of (ending my sentence in a preposition).

So you'll go to work for 8 or even more hours a day so you can have that thing you desired. You go through more negative stuff than positives (more often than not, unless someone just pays you and never once asks you for anything) so you can spend the remaining six hours of your waking, active day in a nice house. You work more and spend less of your time enjoying the thing you're working to keep. Which brings me to my conclusion: I believe this is a waste of your time. 8 hours at work, 6 hours at home. Oh and don't forget getting ready for work. You spend so much time earning money so you can have the things you want.

While what you describe may be true in some or many cases, you seem to have forgotten about the possibility of truly enjoying your job, and using the money that you make to buy a nice house.

I am lucky enough to truly enjoy my job - not every single second of it, but the vast majority of my time working - though I am not lucky enough to own a house