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DPMC Moderators: tryptakid
Goodbye etizolam :(
- Thread starter Ineffable14
- Start date
Bardeaux
Bluelight Crew
I beg to differ.
24 hours without a dose and I feel inches away from a severe seizure, rendering me incapable of working, fulfilling other obligations or even driving to the store.
I also do not think they are addictive.. they absolutely cause a very strong and dangerous physical dependence, But as they do not activate the mesolimbic reward pathway I do not feal they are.
Also my own personal experience has been this way as well. After being physically dependent and thus taking benzos everyday for almost twenty years straight I kicked them and have never once looked longley back. A full bottle could sit untouched on my bed stand forever.
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
Perhaps for the average person taking them they might not be as "addictive" as stuff like alprazolam, diazepam or temazepam, but I can't honestly believe they're not addictive and that's that. Even dependence aside, I mean, people get mightly addicted to processed sugar. How could something that has such a more reward inducing effect and produces so much pleasure for so many be even begun to be considered not addictive. I have a huge problem with the whole concept of addiction to begin with, but as we're using the word here, I mean, come one. To note, I have no qualms with the concept of dependence. Can't argue with that one when it comes to the reality of w/d for such powerful gabaergic/benzo/benzo-like drugs.
Ugh, 100mg of diaz down the hatch and my left eye feels funny. So very odd, that has never happened before. I need to shave. And shower. Ahhh... fuck spending two hours at temple. Any chance to wear a suit though, I take it
but I digress...
Ugh, 100mg of diaz down the hatch and my left eye feels funny. So very odd, that has never happened before. I need to shave. And shower. Ahhh... fuck spending two hours at temple. Any chance to wear a suit though, I take it
but I digress...
I don't like the practice of trying to label drugs as "addictive" or "non-addictive." Any psychoactive drug can lead to addiction for some subset of the human species (see: Brett Chidester). Another subset is able to use any drug without becoming addicted.
Bardeaux
Bluelight Crew
What's the difference, though?
During this strong and dangerous state of withdrawal, there is certainly a compulsion to take more isn't there? Fear of this state of withdrawal and the disabling effect it has could render someone incapable or unwilling to stop taking them, wouldn't you say? Does there have to be a positive reward pathway for something to be considered addictive, or can this also include a fear of dysphoric and immobilizing cessation?
I mean, potato chips are addictive. But I won't be a delusional mess of anxiety and physical distress if I pop the top and then stop
There is definitely a desire to take more. There is definitely a strong overlap between physical dependence and addiction. Relief of acute and post acute symptoms are identical to many symptoms of addiction. I think the distinction comes when the neurochemistry base lines back out. What I experienced at this point is no drive or desire to use benzos ever again. Just to clarify a little background I was on either xanax or klonopin daily for 17 years and was totally dependent on them and only broke from them for a brief stay in the can. When I kicked the bezos I kicked 6 mgpd xanax and I was at this dose for a few years. I never looked back. This is strikingly different from the experience I had and still have for other drugs that involved dopamine. So while I was able just to totally break free from any lasting drive to use benzos this was and is not the case with other drugs that manipulated the reward pathway.
Absolutely kicking benzos is awful and very scary. The difference i see is that behavior that we are naturally driven at such as sex, consumption of high caloric food, drinking water all involve the mesolimbic reward pathway. So I think when we take a substance that involves reward pathway interaction we can have the use of this substance incorporated somehow into the drives that we receive.
This concept holds backing in the "sins of the father." I in know way belive taking drugs is a sin in any fashion, nor do I give much credit to the idea of sin, though certain behaviors are unacceptable as they produce only negative results. But the "sins of the father" refers to the double blind twin separated at birth studies ware twin children of addicts that were separated at birth were studied to determine how much pf addiction was genetic and how much was determined but the life they led. The old nurture vs nature conundrum. Addiction was determined to be very genetic in nature.
I feal that the cause of this is that addicts reprogram the natural drives in their brains to include the use of a substances through the manipulation of the dopamine reward pathway and this is genetically transferred to their offspring.
'
I would wager that if the premise of this study was repeated with parents physically dependent on benzos we would not see results that mirrored chemicals involving dopamine manipulation.
With this we can think about the highly addictive substances which do not cause physical dependence. Like coke for example, coke addicts can go for long periods of absence without feeling anything near withdrawals from benzos, but find themselves driven back to use. benzo dependent people can kick and address the root to their anxiety and never feal a desire to take another benzo again.
cashfl0w_d0nkey
Bluelight Crew
I've been through benzo withdrawal on more than one occasion and I think you definitely want to taper. If you have trouble getting benzos, go to the doctor and get something like clonazepam to taper. You don't even have to mention etizolam if you don't want-- Just say you are dependent on clonazepam and set out your taper plan before them.
Bardeaux
Bluelight Crew
But so can cocaine addicts. Also, a lot of people, especially those with general anxiety disorders before starting benzo use can definitely miss the "calmness in a pill" experience after getting off of them. Much like cocaine addicts who aren't physically dependent on the substance, former benzo addicts can also long for the days of taking the pills. From personal experience, I was on and off of them. Kicked them a couple times but eventually kept gravitating back to them. Perhaps there's a deeper root of my anxiety that I haven't discovered yet, and perhaps cocaine addicts can address the root of their addiction. I feel like if there is a semantic line between addiction and physical dependence, benzos walk it very finely.
I've considered this (Was very close to setting an appointment during a bout of withdrawal recently). But I've acquired enough to start a decent tapering schedule. It's quicker than I'd like and etizolam isn't the ideal tapering substance, but I'll give it a shot.
Being a coke addict i do not think this is the case. There is rarely a day that goes by where i don't at least experience a drive to shoot coke. I would like to hear other addicts experiences around this. I also get hit with a strong drive to use opiates, esp methadone. I was really into speed balls.
But this is not addiction, it the desire to find relief from anxiety not caused by addiction, though it can be greatly exacerbated in drug use and physical dependence. Anxiety is a manipulation used by our unconscious to indicate and motivate us to address a problem it wants solved. It can be something we need to think through or something we need to address about how we are living our lives.
If we constantly circumnavigate this system we constantly stack up a huge pile of unaddressed issues. When we remove the circumvent the issues are still there and are more powerful then ever as the brain likes it homeostasis esp in regards to its power. So as we continue to stack up unaddressed issues by ignoring them with drugs it starts ramping up the effects that we are trying to negate with the drugs.
This is why as captn pointed out
So in the long run the effects of the drug are diminished while the effects we were taking the drugs for are exacerbated and never dealt with. This is why cronic use of many drugs end up significantly increasing the effects they are taken to treat.
IMO this statement is very strong and explores many very profound points. Its scope is so significant that i need to defer my response until tomorrow as im a little worked from the day.
ro4eva
Bluelighter
I have a question for anyone who can answer it:
How do you define addiction in an individual who craves his next dosage of Xanax because of a feeling of an impending, massive panic attack?
I think that, too often, those of us who suffer from illnesses which warrant the use of controlled substances, are falsely labelled as "drug abusers" or "addicts" based on behavior which should probably be considered very rational rather than very abnormal (which addiction implies, FWIU).
Other examples which come to mind, which lead to the patient being accused of "abusing" his or her Rx drug includes the length of time (s)he is on the medication, and also the dosage, and even the medication itself in certain cases. And if that latter example doesn't show how stigmatized certain people who are suffering from chronic, long term, severely painful diseases must feel, then I don't know what does.
Don't worry - I'm not wallowing in self pity, but I've had my fair share of dirty looks simply because I was at a pharmacy to pick up a prescription for a controlled substance. Narcotic analgesics are usually numero uno on the list in relation to dirty looks from the pharmacist, and/or one or more of the pharmacy technicians. How YOU doin'?! Biatch.
===========================================================
If it's not too much to ask, please read the following example regarding the consequences of (certain) recreational drug stigmatization:
Mr. Suq Madeiq has been dealing with severe anxiety and panic attacks for the past decade or so after having a mental breakdown due to job-related stress, lack of sleep, poor (fast food) diet, and being the victim of a violent robbery in which the thieves staged a mock execution.
During the mental breakdown, Suq thought he was experiencing a heart attack, as his limbs went numb, his heart began pounding and skipping beats, he had trouble breathing, and soon got really dizzy.
One of his coworkers witnessed what happened and quickly called for an ambulance, and Suq was rushed to the nearest ER. Thankfully, tests came back negative, and the mental breakdown was ruled just that, or more specifically, a severe panic attack - Suq's first, which is why he was convinced that he was dying from acute heart failure.
Upon the advice of supportive family members, Suq went to see a psychiatrist, who prescribed him Xanax (Alprazolam) 0.5mg TID.
Suq was scared shitless to use any Rx drugs, let alone a psychotropic one - ergo he filled the Rx but did not dare to take any.
That was until about a week later when a series of unfortunate events culminated into a recipe for a massive panic attack. And once he began to notice this happening, Suq decided he'd rather take his chances with the medication.
Approximately 1 hour later, Suq felt remarkably calm - even a little euphoric. But was this feeling of euphoria due to his sheer joy at finally feeling free of any anxiety? Or was it all because of the reward pathway reinforcing effects of the benzodiazepine? Or both perhaps?
Fast forward 5 years, and Suq is still on the same dosage of Xanax. Oddly enough, it still seems to have have a therapeutic effect for him, but no one will believe him.
In fact, a few months ago, Suq voluntarily attended a rehab program for people with mood disorders because he heard good things about it. And he was hoping that by attending, that it would help him to manage his anxiety/panic attacks eventually without the need to use medication.
Suq was upset to discover upon his arrival that the nurses and psychiatrist there labelled him a benzo addict on his medical chart for no reason other than the fact that he has been on it for so long. This really bothered him. He felt unfairly judged by "experts" who never met him in person, but he remained in the program regardless.
Once he finished rehab, Suq took a look at his discharge medical notes, and was glad to notice that his "benzo addiction" diagnosis was changed to "benzo dependency." And before leaving for good, he decided to speak to the medical team about it.
So upon asking the aforementioned staff about the chance from "benzo addiction" to "benzo dependency," and what was it that made them realize he wasn't an addict, he was told that they realized this because he repeatedly forgot to show up on a regular (daily) basis to pick up his Xanax.
More specifically, he was supposed to show up three times a day to pick up the Xanax - (1) in the morning; (2) at noon; (3) and at around dinner time. And more often than not, he forgot to show up for at least one (and sometimes two) doses out of three in total. In fact, it became so regular with Suq that he was formally warned that it could result in him being kicked out of the rehab program.
===========================================================
Assuming you managed to read the boring short story above, and assuming that you have first-hand experience with long term benzo use (therapeutically or recreationally), I'd like to know whether you thought Suq was an addict or not. Perhaps he simply forgot to show up because of short term memory issues? Or maybe it was because he felt no need to take anymore? What do you think? I'm genuinely curious, if you don't mind (because this is based on a true story).
How do you define addiction in an individual who craves his next dosage of Xanax because of a feeling of an impending, massive panic attack?
I think that, too often, those of us who suffer from illnesses which warrant the use of controlled substances, are falsely labelled as "drug abusers" or "addicts" based on behavior which should probably be considered very rational rather than very abnormal (which addiction implies, FWIU).
Other examples which come to mind, which lead to the patient being accused of "abusing" his or her Rx drug includes the length of time (s)he is on the medication, and also the dosage, and even the medication itself in certain cases. And if that latter example doesn't show how stigmatized certain people who are suffering from chronic, long term, severely painful diseases must feel, then I don't know what does.
Don't worry - I'm not wallowing in self pity, but I've had my fair share of dirty looks simply because I was at a pharmacy to pick up a prescription for a controlled substance. Narcotic analgesics are usually numero uno on the list in relation to dirty looks from the pharmacist, and/or one or more of the pharmacy technicians. How YOU doin'?! Biatch.
===========================================================
If it's not too much to ask, please read the following example regarding the consequences of (certain) recreational drug stigmatization:
Mr. Suq Madeiq has been dealing with severe anxiety and panic attacks for the past decade or so after having a mental breakdown due to job-related stress, lack of sleep, poor (fast food) diet, and being the victim of a violent robbery in which the thieves staged a mock execution.
During the mental breakdown, Suq thought he was experiencing a heart attack, as his limbs went numb, his heart began pounding and skipping beats, he had trouble breathing, and soon got really dizzy.
One of his coworkers witnessed what happened and quickly called for an ambulance, and Suq was rushed to the nearest ER. Thankfully, tests came back negative, and the mental breakdown was ruled just that, or more specifically, a severe panic attack - Suq's first, which is why he was convinced that he was dying from acute heart failure.
Upon the advice of supportive family members, Suq went to see a psychiatrist, who prescribed him Xanax (Alprazolam) 0.5mg TID.
Suq was scared shitless to use any Rx drugs, let alone a psychotropic one - ergo he filled the Rx but did not dare to take any.
That was until about a week later when a series of unfortunate events culminated into a recipe for a massive panic attack. And once he began to notice this happening, Suq decided he'd rather take his chances with the medication.
Approximately 1 hour later, Suq felt remarkably calm - even a little euphoric. But was this feeling of euphoria due to his sheer joy at finally feeling free of any anxiety? Or was it all because of the reward pathway reinforcing effects of the benzodiazepine? Or both perhaps?
Fast forward 5 years, and Suq is still on the same dosage of Xanax. Oddly enough, it still seems to have have a therapeutic effect for him, but no one will believe him.
In fact, a few months ago, Suq voluntarily attended a rehab program for people with mood disorders because he heard good things about it. And he was hoping that by attending, that it would help him to manage his anxiety/panic attacks eventually without the need to use medication.
Suq was upset to discover upon his arrival that the nurses and psychiatrist there labelled him a benzo addict on his medical chart for no reason other than the fact that he has been on it for so long. This really bothered him. He felt unfairly judged by "experts" who never met him in person, but he remained in the program regardless.
Once he finished rehab, Suq took a look at his discharge medical notes, and was glad to notice that his "benzo addiction" diagnosis was changed to "benzo dependency." And before leaving for good, he decided to speak to the medical team about it.
So upon asking the aforementioned staff about the chance from "benzo addiction" to "benzo dependency," and what was it that made them realize he wasn't an addict, he was told that they realized this because he repeatedly forgot to show up on a regular (daily) basis to pick up his Xanax.
More specifically, he was supposed to show up three times a day to pick up the Xanax - (1) in the morning; (2) at noon; (3) and at around dinner time. And more often than not, he forgot to show up for at least one (and sometimes two) doses out of three in total. In fact, it became so regular with Suq that he was formally warned that it could result in him being kicked out of the rehab program.
===========================================================
Assuming you managed to read the boring short story above, and assuming that you have first-hand experience with long term benzo use (therapeutically or recreationally), I'd like to know whether you thought Suq was an addict or not. Perhaps he simply forgot to show up because of short term memory issues? Or maybe it was because he felt no need to take anymore? What do you think? I'm genuinely curious, if you don't mind (because this is based on a true story).
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ro4eva
Bluelighter
If so, then I think that's a huge problem that needs to be addressed, because countless people continue to suffer needlessly for it. And this is especially true when one of these victims have little to no objective medical evidence to support the fact that they are indeed in a lot of pain and/or distress.
In other words, countless patients are suffering needlessly because our medical tests are unable to diagnose the problem; because our medical imaging techniques are unable to observe the source of the pain. So let's just not believe them, or let's consider all of them who are seeking controlled substances to be malingerers who are actually seeking the medication purely for recreational use. And I blame the politicians and their bureaucratic lackeys (as well as the mainstream media) for this way of thinking much more so than the doctors themselves.
Bureaucrats (and politicians for that matter) should have no business sticking their noses in between a nation's healthcare system because they believe that they are qualified to make decisions for physicians, pharmacists, paramedics, and nurses - and also to keep them on a leash. It's absolutely sickening, and there should be no place for them in a medical setting in a society which considers itself to be civilized, free, just, and rational.
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Now I am unable to get hold of Etizolam any more, can someone recommend something which is close in effects? My experiments with Etiz helped with Insomnia and Panic Attacks. I have read a lot of the other products on the main vendor sites but don't want to spend money out trying them all. If someone could recommend a good alternative to Etiz especially for sleeping I would be grateful. Thanks.
Screaming_Skull
Bluelighter
Ummm, is it just me or is it still out there just not the blister packs from India or whereever the fuck they were coming from? I'm not going to give any sources so don't ask but I've seen a number of sites that still have the powder, which you need a scale to measure out..Kinda wish they would do that and stop coming out with all these pellets of everything making so easy for everyone to get and consume, but I guese It could be a good thing since people know how much there taking. But anyway, my fear was this stuff was totally gone but doesn't seem to be the case...even if it was there are a number of other actual benzo's out there, and there pretty damn easy to get from a doctor, depending on location from what I've seen on here.