Harm Reduction Glutethimide and Codeine Harm Reduction Question

[Oizys]

Hello everyone, long time lurker, first time poster here. I have recently come into possession of a considerable amount of 250mg glutethimide capsules. As you might guess, I am interested in trying the mythical "doors and fours" combo. For reference, my tolerance to codeine itself is very high, with doses far above the supposed "ceiling effect" of 400-600 mg producing only minor euphoria. I am also quite tolerant to tramadol and hydrocodone. Prior research suggests doses of 750-1000mg glutethimide combined with 300-400 mg codeine are enough to produce a heroin like high. So bluelighters, especially veterans from the Doriden days, whats your recommendations?

 

[Azed]

Doriden is available in the U.S. as a schedule two with possibly the lowest amount of supply available (as a result of the DEA production quotas) apparently only 3,000mg can be produced in a year or 12 250mg capsules.

Licit production worldwide seems to have ceased. So you either have multi-decade old capsules (unlikely) or more likely capsules that have been illicitly manufactured and may not actually contain glutethimide at all.

If what you said is true regarding the quantity that you have available I would recommend sending some of it in for analysis. In this day and age I wouldn't want to mess around with fentanyl or xylazline or precursors/contaminants.

Hopefully someone with some experience with this combo can charm in to give you some advice.


Best wishes and stay safe!
Azed

 

[chippermonk]

I'm in the same position, sort of, having a couple doridens (glutethimide) in my possession. Mine are legit, as I got them from my grandma's medicine cabinet in 1981 (I also got a couple Rorer 714s and some meprobomate). I never took them because, honestly, I hate downers and also got drug tested at work for 30 years. I do like opiates but have virtually no tolerance. My one experience with heroin made me throw up for 3 days, so maybe I'm not really looking for a heroin experience! But I am wondering if they have any use to me. When people say that they potentiate codeine, does it mean that you get more of a nice opiate high, or is just that you are more fucked up? Does it become more of a downer buzz than a warm fuzzy opiate buzz? My understanding is that it acts on the CYP2D6 enzyme involved in processing codeine into morphine in your body, thus the greater opiate buzz, but since the glutethimide/doriden is a downer as well, I am cautious.
I'm also wondering if it would help (or hurt) with any other drugs, since CYP2D6 is involved in much drug metabolism. I think I read that CYP2D6 is involved in metabolizing amphetamines, but what effect the glutethimide would have, I don't understand.
My thought is to try maybe 1/4 of a doriden with 30 mg of codeine just to see if anything happens. I really have zero opiate tolerance these days. But maybe that won't do anything and will be a waste.
PS I am new on bluelight, so I wasn't sure if I should just tag onto this post or create my own, since my question is a little different from the OPs. Thanks

 

[Azed]

I'm in the same position, sort of, having a couple doridens (glutethimide) in my possession. Mine are legit, as I got them from my grandma's medicine cabinet in 1981 (I also got a couple Rorer 714s and some meprobomate). I never took them because, honestly, I hate downers and also got drug tested at work for 30 years. I do like opiates but have virtually no tolerance. My one experience with heroin made me throw up for 3 days, so maybe I'm not really looking for a heroin experience! But I am wondering if they have any use to me. When people say that they potentiate codeine, does it mean that you get more of a nice opiate high, or is just that you are more fucked up? Does it become more of a downer buzz than a warm fuzzy opiate buzz? My understanding is that it acts on the CYP2D6 enzyme involved in processing codeine into morphine in your body, thus the greater opiate buzz, but since the glutethimide/doriden is a downer as well, I am cautious.
I'm also wondering if it would help (or hurt) with any other drugs, since CYP2D6 is involved in much drug metabolism. I think I read that CYP2D6 is involved in metabolizing amphetamines, but what effect the glutethimide would have, I don't understand.
My thought is to try maybe 1/4 of a doriden with 30 mg of codeine just to see if anything happens. I really have zero opiate tolerance these days. But maybe that won't do anything and will be a waste.
PS I am new on bluelight, so I wasn't sure if I should just tag onto this post or create my own, since my question is a little different from the OPs. Thanks

In regards to CPY2D6, this is what drugbank.com states, "Glutethimide seems to be a GABA agonist which helps induce sedation. It also induces CYP 2D6. When taken with codeine, it enables the body to convert higher amounts of codeine (higher than the average 5 - 10%) to morphine. This combination of effects enhances sedation.". This is to say that you would be more likely to feel the effects of the codeine. The page also goes on to say that "The risk or severity of CNS depression can be increased when Codeine is combined with Glutethimide." This is a pretty common warning when combing depressants so I wouldn't worry to much about it. So I would recommend starting small and working your way up. So, worse case scenario you feel nothing and waste some of your stash. Alternatively, you do too much and have a "bad" time. Remember the mantra, you can always take more, but never less.

And for the Codeine, if it is pharmaceutical grade; 30 mg is the same amount that is in Rx Tylenol #3 (300mg acetaminophen and 30mg codeine). I often saw it prescribed after dental procedures. So I would assume that 30mg of codeine is enough to deal with dental intervention related pain (moderate). So I don't think it will get you high per-se. If you have a moderate amount of supply; I would recommend taking each substance individually before combining the two.


Be careful, be safe, and enjoy!
Azed

 

[Keif' Richards]

A major point that should be clarified that I think is confusing to a lot of people (myself included at first) is the difference between inhibiting and promoting an enzyme's activity. I know we're talking about CYP2D6 here, mainly. I heard the relationship between said-enzyme and Amphetamine mentioned. See, inhibiting CYP2D6 means that enzyme is not able to break down the Amphetamine as quickly/efficiently, leading to a more powerful, longer-lasting experience.

With Codeine, we need CYP2D6 to be functioning. The more efficiently the enzyme can function, in theory, the more Codeine (3-MethylMorphine) can be demethylated, hence, more Morphine will ultimately be absorbed, leading to a more powerful experience.

I'm familiar with the concept of using the combination of Glutethimide (Doriden) + Codeine to take advantage of this principle. I was born in 1990, so it was before my time, but I've read about it. When I read a statement like "the combination is just like using intravenous Heroin" I'm instantly pretty skeptical. That just seems a little exaggeratory. If things go right, aren't you basically just taking Morphine via the oral route?

Glutethimide itself is more than just an inducer of CYP2D6. It's a fairly potent non-Barbiturate sedative. Non-Barbiturate is a little confusing. It basically references any drug that behaves like a Barbiturate in most every way, though is chemically outside the definition of a true Barbiturate. For those unaware, Barbiturates are very dangerous and unpredictable compared to our generation's equivalent, the Benzodiazepines. Benzodiazepines + Opioids is already a very dangerous combination; Barbiturates and Opioids are even more dangerous.

I can't find anything remotely close to telling us by what margin the Codeine -> Morphine reaction is potentiated, we only know that it is to some clinically significant extent.

Glutethimide itself really seems to be the most dangerous aspect of this whole exercise. 250mg - 500mg Glutethimide would be a common dose. Apparently death has been caused by as little as 3,000mg and death seems likely at 10,000mg/10g. I know this doesn't seem like much. It's actually a pretty low therapeutic index for a drug, again, a lot like Barbiturates in this regard.

From a Harm Reduction perspective, the whole thing is a little bit worrisome to me. We don't know how much more Morphine you're actually getting and we're simultaneously taking a non-Barbiturate with a very low therapeutic index. There are definitely fatalities on record from when the "craze" was going on. I'd love to see some hard-hitting numbers from someone with a good research-account with Sage or similar. I can only read the abstracts, which isn't good for much.

 

[chippermonk]

Thanks for the detailed reply, I really appreciate it. This site really seems like a great community.
I've been reading through old posts on BL trying to make sense of the reported effects of glutethimide on enzymes re various drugs but it is very confusing! (grapefruit even more confusing) I saw various people waxing nostalgic about how the "dors-n-fours" was the "greatest drug experience of their lives", like the best heroin, etc. But lets be honest, this was a big thing back at a time when heroin was scarce and people were desperate. (It was the same with those T's and blues that people used to do. I never tried it but I did try talwin alone and that stuff was weak crap, and I don't think anything was going to make that worthwhile except to someone really hard up!) My feeling is there is some nostalgia in people's experience with dors n 4s that maybe makes them idealize it. Also, they were doing bigger doses than I would do.
All the same, it does seem like it really must increase the conversion of codeine to morphine, so maybe makes for a better opiate buzz. But like you say, from a harm reduction aspect, I wonder about the downer effect mixed in. I ended up in a hospital from a seconal OD long ago and I played around with a variety of downers back in the day. I decided I hated them all, including quaaludes. Didn't like feeling sleepy for 24 hours afterwards. (benzos are ok at times, in occasional small doses for therapeutic purposes, but not for pleasure) I don't want to OD, nor do I want to contaminate a beautiful opiate buzz with a downer thing.
My situation is, I like occasional light doses of opiates but my supply is very limited and I have no sources. I'm sure I could try to get some street stuff in the Tenderloin, but that would mean fentanyl and I don't want to go down that road ever. One thing I have is a handful of codipront I got in Peru, 30 mg of codeine with an antihistamine called phenytoloxamine (sp?) They seem really weak so I have the idea of taking 1/4 of a doriden with one or two of those. I'm hoping maybe that is enough doriden to work on the CYP2D6 without giving me a sleeping pill buzz, but maybe I'm just being a dummy I also have a few percocets and vicodin, and I think I read somewhere that glutethimide boosts them, too, but I like them as they are, no need to change anything.
Anyhow, thanks for advice and the encouragement to be cautious. If I do try it out, I'll report back.

 

[chippermonk]

...I may have to create a whole new post to ask questions about grapefruit re opiates, meth, viagra, and other drugs!

 

[TheJuner]

Hello everyone, long time lurker, first time poster here. I have recently come into possession of a considerable amount of 250mg glutethimide capsules. As you might guess, I am interested in trying the mythical "doors and fours" combo. For reference, my tolerance to codeine itself is very high, with doses far above the supposed "ceiling effect" of 400-600 mg producing only minor euphoria. I am also quite tolerant to tramadol and hydrocodone. Prior research suggests doses of 750-1000mg glutethimide combined with 300-400 mg codeine are enough to produce a heroin like high. So bluelighters, especially veterans from the Doriden days, whats your recommendations?

Hey did you try the glutethimide and codeine drug combination? And if so, how was it?

 

[AlsoTapered]

A typical 'load' of '4s and Dors' was 180mg codeine phosphate (3 x Tylenol #4) plus 500mg of glutethimide (2 x Doriden).

 

[paranoid android]

I have never done this combo but i have to say i am very fucking jealous