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GHB and acidosis

hey fastandfucked in the ass. suck my dick, you don't know shit. You're wife is a pharmacist, big fucking deal, she is forced to believe what ever the drug companies spread to her. GBL and GHB are NOT the same fucking thing. If this is a harm reduction site, you are killing people by telling its the same thing you moron. You are fucked buddy, there have been about 4 or 5 other people saying the same thing that they have never experienced withdrawals using pure GHB powder, but when it comes down to GBL and they stop abruptly they feel like complete shit, tachycardia, climbing the walls, etc. So your theory is full of this, and you have also provided no evidence or websites to backup your claims on GBL being non-toxic. Jesus christ, you should NOT be a moderator here.
 
fast: just because you don't have access to pure ghb powder, no need to critisize it, and state false claims that GBL is exactly the same thing. Live it up buddy, and find a proper GHB supplier, instead of spreading misinformation and threatening the lives of others.
 
And more insults eh? How open minded. Tell you what, how about I post links to all the previous threads where the GBL/GHB issue came up and let everyone decide. They can see where you tell people to shut up, stop posting and one where you even threaten someone for disagreeing with you. You've repeatedly stated that 'you don't give a fuck what other people say', so you're saying that your not going to let little things like facts get in the way of what you believe

You come across like lots of other people who know a bit about pharmacology and because they have 'experience' of taking the drug, feel that they are an authority on the subject without looking at any research papers (see the 'don't give a fuck' comment above). So, lets see your comprehensive arguements eh? For the 4 or 5 people who actually agree with you, you'll see that there are a hell of a lot more that think you don't have a clue (funny how they seem to be the ones with a pharmacology background).

Anyway, so that people can decide for themselves...

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=227799&highlight=GBL

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=196006&highlight=GBL

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=224499&highlight=GBL

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=223530&highlight=GBL

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=223847&highlight=GBL

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=221576&highlight=GBL

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=219215&highlight=GBL

Doesn't paint a very good picture, does it

(awaits another barrage of insults)
 
You see fast, the people with the pharmacology background or the people like you that don't agree with me, I guarentee you that they HAVE just taken GBL, and not Pure GHB. How many times have I said this. I bet you a fucking million dollars you've never tryed Pure GHB Powder, and compared results with GBL. You wuold probably lie and say you have tryed it because I can picture somebody like you doing that, because you don't want to make yourself look bad on this board. Its the same way when doctors prescribe all these SSRI's, Benzo's, Antipsychotics, etc. Have they tryed them themselves? NO. They are just quacks believing any word that comes out of a fucking Pharmaceutical company pamphlet.

You get the point now? Or are you still believing in the quack bullshit which people 'write' about but have never even tryed the drug. I take the people's advice that have used GHB and GBL for years, because they have actually TAKEN the drug. Not some quack scientist that just makes up bullshit and has never had any experience with the drug.

More importantly, I advise you go out and buy yourself a copy of Dr. Ward Deans Book on Extensive GHB Research called "GHB - The Natural Mood Enhancer"

Or take a visit over here to http://www.ceri.com/feature.htm

and Not that Erowid bullshit that you like to post.
 
and Not that Erowid bullshit that you like to post.
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So if you find a scientist that agrees with you, he's a 'good' scientist, yet if he doesn't agree with you he's a 'quack' scientist? I've seen that sort of logic before and I believe it was the Nazis - if you disagreed with National Socalist science you were a fraud, but if you agreed with it, you were a brilliant scientist (they produced loads of literature to discredit Einstein because he was opposed to them).

I don't use, as you put it,'that Erowid bullshit', which incidentally has a link to 'GHB - The Natural Mood Enhancer' (so by your logic, the book is bullshit because it appears in the Erowid GHB vault), but references in research papers I've either found by searching the internet (in respected journals) or my wife has get a copy for me.

BTW, why is Dr Dean Ward a valid reference source, yet the people mentioned in the extract below (from a paper on the mechanism of GHB overdose) not?

Study co-authors are Rachel Chin, MD, UCSF assistant professor of medicine and surgery at SFGH; Brian Cullison, a student in the UCSF School of Medicine; Jo Ellen Dyer, PharmD, UCSF associate clinical professor of pharmacy and a specialist with the California Poison Control system; and Thomas D. Wu, MD, PhD, Stanford University School of Medicine.

Could it be because they don't agree with you? After all, they're either doctors or professors and aren't trying to make some money by writing a book (there's not a lot of money in co-authoring a toxicology paper).


At this point I'll risk sounding like an old git, but I've been doing research into drugs (either through a university or more recently on my own initiative) for longer than you've been on the planet. While that in no way guarentees accuracy, I have had plenty of experience of hunting down papers and filtering out the dubious and just plain bullshit stuff. Anybody who's been involved in the same sort of thing for at least a few years will tell you that you can't take everything written at face value, you have to independantly verify it. Also that anyone doing something for monetary gain (like writing a book, possibly about GHB?) is generally to be treated as possibly less reliable than pure academic research papers where no-ones trying to get rich.

You wuold probably lie and say you have tryed it because I can picture somebody like you doing that, because you don't want to make yourself look bad on this board.
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Actually, I did try it about 6 years ago, but had far too small a dose to feel anything as I had a built in distrust of anonymous solns from people I didn't know very well, so I haven't actually felt it's full effects. Nonetheless, you don't need to have tried a drug to understand its pharmacology (otherwise there'd be no pharmaceutical industry/new drugs because some, like anti-cancer drugs are really unpleasant and best avoided unless you actually have cancer). To think that you have to try a drug to understand things like it's effects on the body is, well just plain dumb. If you're talking psychopharmacology then it does start to play a part, but in terms of things like toxicology, necer having taken the drug is neither here nor there. Understanding what happens to the drug in the body is what's important. At the other extreme, having taken a drug but not understanding anything about its fate in the body isn't exactly an achievement - thousands of stoners of every kind do that every day & it hardly makes you qualified to comment on the detailed pharmacology of the drug.

and you have also provided no evidence or websites to backup your claims on GBL being non-toxic. Jesus christ, you should NOT be a moderator here.
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If you look in the links to those threads, you'll find links/refs by me and other people to info about GBL's non-toxicity. As for not being a moderator, I suppose someone who 'doesn't give a fuck what other people say' and actually threatens posters who disagree with him is perfect material for a moderator eh?

Never left the playground!
 
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Your wasting my time, you child. Growup. I'm putting all your posts on ignore from now on. I'm sick of the misinformation you spread. Exactly like I thought, you've never even tryed Pure GHB Powder before, so therefore. Shut your mouth please, you make yourself look like a moron as you already are.
 
DjTaZZ said:
Your wasting my time, you child. Growup. I'm putting all your posts on ignore from now on. I'm sick of the misinformation you spread. Exactly like I thought, you've never even tryed Pure GHB Powder before, so therefore. Shut your mouth please, you make yourself look like a moron as you already are.
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Yeah, ignore my posts because you have no valid counter arguement; that's really mature behaviour. You're not sick of misinformation, you're sick of being shown up as the ignorant, narrow minded petty little person that you are. I must have touched a painful truth or else why would you have resorted to such out and out name calling and being offensive. You're actually the sort of personality that gives teenagers a bad reputation of being arrogant, brainless and full of their own self importance.

So, do like an ostrich and stick your head in the cyber-sand so you can't hear any more. The facts will still be there and the only thing that'll have changed is that you'll seem even more like a petulant child that refuses to play anymore because he can't get his own way. Yep, you definitely come across as a respected authority on GBL/GHB, who's always up to date with any research (in case you didn't realize, that's sarcasm).

If you actually do put me on ignore and not see this, it wouldn't surprise me. After all, the truth hurts
 
DjTaZZ said:
GBL and GHB are not the same thing. I don't care what you say buddy.
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I have recently started using GBL so have been following most of the recent GBL threads across Bluelight over the past few weeks. To be fair, F&B has never said that GBL and GHB are exactly the same drug. He has always mentioned the higher peak plasma level of GHB after consumption of GBL
 
If somebody has GBL I thought it was very easy to convert this into GHB anyway.

Personally im not really interested in this convo although I did see that fast was getting some abuse hurled at him.

If I trusted somebody then i'd be more interested in their personal accounts after having tried both GBL liquid and GHB powder.

I think that what is written in the literature is often useful information. However this must also be combined with personal accounts from reliable informants with first-hand experience on the subject to find out what is really going on.
 
F&B (and everyone arguing with Djtazz): Some people get pleasure from insulting others over the net. I tend to go the freudian path and explain it as a compensation for some shortness... in any case, stop casting your pearls upon swine ;)
 
Yes, well I didn't exactly acquit myself with honour - I fell into the personal attack trap as well (even if it was over his previous posts on the subject) where I could have just stuck to the pertinent facts. Sometimes though, I just see red when I feel like I'm being (fairly) reasonable yet the other person has decided on their opinion and aren't going to let trifling things like facts alter it.

I can feel the cynical, vitriolic me starting to rise up again, so I'll leave it at what I've said for the moment
 
youguys all have hairy ballzanya, ghb 0wnz gBl u FuCkInG newBz. RoFL BluEliGht is NotHinG buT meThAmpHETAMINE AdDiCts / CrACk AddiCts & AutOmaTicS - YouGuyZ are AlL DowNer Pussies.
 
^ I'll be honest and say that I don't know what the mechanism of this observation could be, but it is from a study in dogs - dogs do not have the exact same biochemistry as humans (all mammals have slightly different biochemisty, meaning that they respond differently to the same drug). It's possible that dogs do not possess significant amounts of plasma pseudoesterase to metabolize the GBL to GHB.

My reason for the above comment is based on the following study

Journal of Toxicology: : Volume 39, Number 6 / 2001 Pages: 653 - 654 DOI: 10.1081/CLT-100108502

"During GHB poisoning, acidosis can be due to respiratory acidosis (1), metabolic acidosis has also been reported (2)..."

The above was from an article about GHB intoxication in people admitted to emergency rooms. GBL was also stated to produce metabolic acidosis in large doses, so unlike in dogs (which was also using intravenous infusion of the drugs) both GHB and GBL have been found to produce acidosis in humans (so GBL isn't inherently more dangerous in humans than GHB).

This observation (that both produce acidosis in humans as well as 1,4-BDO) is also confirmed in the following:

Gamma-hydroxybutyrate, gamma-butyrolactone, and 1,4-butanediol: A case report and review of the literature.
Pediatric Emergency Care. 16(6):435-440, December 2000.

This leads to the conclusion that it must be GHB that is responsible for the acidosis as the only metabolite that GBL & 1,4-BDO have in common is GHB. As to how GHB causes the acidosis, that's still up for discussion as far as I know, but I'm still putting money on endocrine effects until all the evidence is in.

Incidentally, 1,4-BDO is much more toxic than either GHB or GBL as it requires the liver to convert it to GHB via alcohol dehydrogenase in a manner analogous to the metabolism of ethanol to acetic acid, thereby putting a 'load' on the liver in the same way alcohol does (and we all know the damage large doses of alcohol can have on the liver). It also appears to be similar to other polyhydric alcohols in irritating the lining of the GI tract


With regard to you & your g/f's admission to hospital, was she on any meds that you were not (I'm including the contraceptive pill)? This can alter the bone density for women (which is why women are many times more likely to suffer from oesteoporosis after the menopause), leading to easier fracturing of bones. Such conditions can also occur due to things like mineral/vitamin deficiency from poor diet (a common cause of ill health in persons dependant upon drugs of abuse) and inhertited risk factors.

I did a search for other threads re GBL/GHB and found this comment that you posted a while ago

Note how acidic compounds (which GBL is) in the human diet causes acidosis.
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GBL isn't an acidic compound as it does not alter the concn of hydrogen ions in solution. While I agree with the statement in your post that consuming acidic compounds can lead to Ca++ depletion because of reduction of plasma pH (consequently solublizing Ca++ ions from bone), I don't think you can make the logical jump to GBL causes Ca++ depletion because it's acidic because of the fact that GBL isn't acidic, nor does it 'leave behind' an excess of H+ during conversion to GHB as the hydrolysis of GBL to GHB consumes a H+ and an OH- ion therefore leaving the concn of H+ ions unaltered.
 
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On the other hand, in serum, a H2O molecule ring opens GBL to GHB(acid)..This does not produce any net protons BUT the resulting Gammahydroxybutyric acid would lose a proton
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It'd be pretty much completely buffered due to plasma bicarbonate at all but OD doses. If GHB from GBL caused acidosis then surely GHB from GHB-Na would as well due to the fact that as soon as the GHB-Na hits the stomach it would be converted to NaCl and GHB due to the action of hydrochloric acid in the stomach.

I can't see how significant quantities of GBL could be formed in a soln of GHB-Na as the sodium salt formation would push the equilibrium of the GBL + H2O / GHB reaction way over to the GHB side. Any GHB present in the unionized form would require the Na+ ion to be ionically balanced by an OH- ion. So the amount of unionized GHB (which it must be to be part of the equilibrium) is going to be very small. That combined with the equilibrium constant would mean that the amount of GBL would be extremely small.

Respiratory depression --> buildup of CO2 in lungs --> respiratory acidosis.. wouldn't this at some point translate into metabolic acidosis?
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Never thought about that as the mechanism behind the acidosis. Surely though, as that's not directly linked to GBL/GHB metabolism, that means that acidosis must occur as a consequence of respiratory depression regardless of the drug causing said depression. That rules out any acidosis being directly linked to only GBL.

I can't imagine any part of the GHB metabolic route suffering any saturation except for the conversion of GHB to COOH-CH2-CH2-COOH (can't remember name, think it's succinic acid) by alcohol dehydrogenase as after that it is directly incorporated into the citric acid cycle for conversion into energy, water and carbon dioxide
 
50ml a day is 80g a day (of GHB) after hydrolysis - now that much might just be a bit too much for the plasma bicarb to deal with.

Come to think of it.. my gf would usuallyknock herself out daily, while I'd hardly ever hit KO... perhaps that's the differing factor between us.
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Was she consuming the same amount (GHB equivalence) as your g/f? If so, considering that women generally have a lower weight/smaller plasma volume, she'd have got a much higher plasma concn if you took the same dose. Also if you were taking GHB & she was taking GBL she's going to get an even higher peak plasma level (my prev explanation of why - because of GBL absorbing through membranes much faster than GHB) so there's even more chance of totally swamping the relevant metabolic enzymes. The higher peak plasma level would also cause more solublization of Ca++ from the bone tissue.

For the equilibrium constant at different pH's pH2 would be purely between GBL/GHB, as it would at pH7. At pH14 though the equilibrium would be between GBL/GHB, but with the GHB formed being partially taken out of the equation because of the dissociation constant between GHB/GHB-Na. This would effectively cause more of the GBL to be hydrolysed as the eq. const. for GBL/GHB is between unionized compounds. Some of that GHB will be ionized into HO-CH2-CH2-COO- and Na+, which will keep pulling the eq. away from the GBL side.

Cheers for the article offer. I don't have a uni library access any more, but my other half has - I'll ask her if she can get me an e-copy; if not, I'd be grateful.


As mentioned above, I think the reason your g/f suffered from the acidotic side effects more than you would be two-fold

1) She was using GBL which gets into the bloodstream faster because of it's less polar nature, but the rapid hydrolysis would actually lead to a higher peak plasma level than you taking GHB, so more acidosis-like damage.

2) I'm assuming she was smaller/lighter than you, so an equal dose in terms of the amount of GHB (after GBL hydrolysis in her case) would also produce a higher mg/kg figure (again with more consequent damage).

I think the fact that you weren't showing signs of clinical acidosis, yet she was indicates that you were about at the limit of the amount of GHB (or eq GBL) that you can get away with per day; of course her 'knocking herself out' once a day is also going to make hers worse because of the amount of CO2 that would be in the blood. 50ml/80g a day of GBL/GHB is a pretty serious habit...

I think this might also explain synchrojet's observed acidosis without any endocrine involvement if he was taking similar doses.


Looks like my endocrine involvement theory was just being overly complicated when a much simpler explanation was just waiting to be found. It also pretty much confirms that at really high doses it doesn't matter whether it's GBL or GHB, it's going to be simply the amount of drug that causes the acidosis.

I really hope that you're not still using those sorts of daily dose now - that's just plain scary!
 
Most Ive taken is around 20-25mls a day for a few weeks on end. But this is during months and months of straight usage always over 10mls/d. I have quit numerous times after taking this much including just last week. Perhaps then quitting GBL only becomes a bigger problem when you get to over 30mls a day?
 
Despite the illogic of Matthew’s presentation, there may be some wisdom in his advice. There is certainly a lot we do not know about exactly how we might adapt to long-term use of butyrolactone in different circumstances. I have two concerns. The first is acidosis. Every molecule of GBL that is hydrolyzed by lactonase generates one molecule of GHB-acid [illustration not shown], or, equivalently, consumes one molecule of hydroxide [sidebar not shown]. This can alter pH (acidity-alkalinity) in the blood stream. In some people, blood acidification might be a problem. While it is true that 1-2 grams of an organic acid is not a very large acidification effect in absolute terms, it happens in a relatively short period of time and may have subtle effects on pH-dependent systems. For example, blood pH is critical for regulating the binding and release of oxygen from hemoglobin. This might affect somebody with emphysema (with deficient oxygen absorption) or diabetes (with higher risk of lactic acidosis) more than somebody in good health. Similarly, food choices affect blood acidity. Somebody eating an extreme diet might be more susceptible to circulatory acidosis than somebody eating a mixed diet. Since rats and mice tolerate this acidification effect at a ten-times greater magnitude, it is not likely to be a problem in normal, healthy people. However, it is a general rule that the average lab rat eats a more nutritious diet than the average person. So, this could be a problem in some people.

http://www.ceri.com/q_v7n4q1.htm


Does GBL change blood acidity?

fastandbulbous you are incredibly patient
 
Raybeez --

Thanks for the references. I've looked for those a few times to add to some of my own posts here. Interestingly, this thread starter was a typo on my part, but the discussion seems to be fruitful so there is no need to reintroduce the point.

Anyway, I think that the answer (for the most part) is covered in those articles, and I strongly suggest that anyone wishing to understand the issue of GHB/GBL induced acidosis read the articles in their entirety.

Great find, great contribution.
 
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