• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | someguyontheinternet

Getting real information..

streetsurfer

Ex-Bluelighter
Joined
Feb 18, 2004
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I am livng in a hostel at the moment and I talked to a guy I was sharing my dorm with who studied medicene but now worked in PR for big pharmacetical company. He told me how he ghost writes articles regarding a particular drug, putting spin on the results of clinical trials then gets a well known Doctor to sign off on it, in return for cash of course. The stuff he does is directed a GP's to try to influence their perscribing habits but their are others like him who write articles aimed at the general public so they go to their doctor and ask for these drugs.

I always new it, but it was interesting to get it str8 from the horses mouth.

That said, how do you get real info, even the clinical trials are bullshit, how do u vet them on pubmed? I imagine it would be the same for the vitamin and suppliment industry, doing the same thing. Infiltrating message boards like this even in their marketing. How do you know?
 
peer review

It’s called peer review. I teach at a “college”, and almost all clinical trials and “articles” as you say are subject to peer review. All the way from the clinical trials to the articles pertaining to said clinical trials. There are lions, i.e. other specialist in the field just waiting to sift through the data and find some holes in it no matter how minute the hole. Now, I am assuming these articles are not published in any sort of journal (i.e. jama, ect…) If they were writing these articles and then sending them out to the reps.; which in turn, were pimping their drugs to GP’s to prescribe; then there would be no peer review, because it would not be published, and thus let the B.S. fly.
 
Well, look at the whole Ketek / telithromycin debacle. There are definitely scientists and researchers that are whores out there. How many spokesmen were hired for the tobacco industry back in the day? It is possible that an overworked GP might be fooled for a period of time by some shiny new study and a dinner, but ultimately the truth will out. There are indeed many prominent ‘lions’ vetting things out there… and even if they were lax in their duties, there are crowds of hungry young lions looking to make their name. The peer review process isn’t perfect, and science is a social practice; but a true community of the adequate will not be duped for long. Just speaking from personal experience, even reporting data that is not theoretically surprising can take a while. The reviewers at say JAMA or the like are brutal. Even a well written and researched paper can get dozens of corrections, questions, and comments sent back. Publication in the peer review process is more than simply hitting print on your data set. But marketing… that is a whole other beastie…

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getting published in a peer reviewed journal is a bitch. my sophomore tutorial teacher is a psych researcher, and he was telling me that through the peer review process, articles get pared down a lot, sometime to the point of having very obvious conclusions...not that that's a bad thing..the idea is not to overstate and to be cautious.

however, doctors can be duped by drug companies/fda for long periods of time. SSRIs are a great example. the way the first SSRI (prozac) got approval is a joke. i took this quote from a paper i wrote on the serotonin hypothesis bc i am too lazy to retype it:

The long process Eli Lilly undertook to get Prozac approved as an antidepressant was rife with failed clinical trials. The FDA allows drug companies to run as many clinical trials as it takes to get a significant result and does not require companies to disclose failed trials. In addition, the drug only has to be shown more effective than a placebo, not older drugs. Eli Lilly submitted fourteen clinical studies on Prozac to the FDA, only three of which actually showed that Prozac had a positive effect; ten showed no effect, and when Prozac was compared to Tofranil, an older antidepressant, Tofranil was more effective than Prozac in seven of eight studies. In a “Dear Doctor” letter, Eli Lilly stated that over 6,000 patients were treated with Prozac during clinical studies, but careful scrutiny of each study found that only 286 patients actually completed four, five, or six weeks of Prozac treatment in a double-blind, placebo-controlled study. When Prozac was approved by the FDA, a miniscule 63 patients had been taking the drug for more than two years. Eli Lilly also excluded any people with suicidal tendencies from participating in its Prozac trials. Extrapolating safety and efficacy of Prozac to the millions of people who would eventually take it on the basis of a lukewarm response by 286 mildly depressed subjects is inaccurate, if not irresponsible. Further, the difficulty Eli Lilly had in proving that Prozac actually ameliorated depression casts doubt on the serotonin hypothesis because if the serotonin hypothesis is valid, it shouldn’t take multiple clinical trials with skewed patient populations to prove that a drug that increases serotonin in the brain alleviates depression.

david healy's the antidepressant era talks a good deal about the true efficacy of SSRIs. he examined a bunch of SSRI studies (varous SSRIs and various disorders) and concluded that SSRIs seemed to be 'miracles' for a fraction of the people within each disorder (depression, generalized anxiety disorder, bulimia, social anxiety disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder...the list goes on...all disorders SSRIs are purported to treat) but generally ineffective for the majority of people. basically, there are people who have serotonin deficiencies (which apparently manifests in many ways) for whom SSRIs are a godsend, but SSRIs are not the 'magic bullet' treatment for depression and will be ineffective in many cases....yet doctors still prescribe SSRIs as the first line treatment for depression in most cases.

given the thoroughness of peer review, i have a feeling that the fda does not require clinical trials to be peer reviewed (i doubt peer review would allow eli lilly to run many trials with no placebo group, biased subject choice, etc.)
 
To get real information you avoid anything published in shitty drug hype journals like DrugID and Current Developmental Drugs , and alike.

Any paper where all the authors are from a pharma should be taken with a big grain of salt if they're claiming something novel like "this benzodiazepine we have just developed doesn't cause dependence"; even if it is published in a could journal (like JPET).

Papers which have one guy from a pharma, and several people from a university, are usually legit, but they will still never report any negative findings about a drug.

The best source for clinical information are Cochrane Systematic Reviews.
 
BilZ0r said:
Papers which have one guy from a pharma, and several people from a university, are usually legit, but they will still never report any negative findings about a drug.
The ‘file drawer effect’ should not be underestimated when it comes to negative findings that might portend a loss of profits and/or lawsuits for Big Pharma. Overt lies by fabrication are far less common than the subtle lies of omission that can deep 6 what appears to be a significant P value.

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^ I would go so far as to say that nearly every paper published that was (partially) funded by a drug company, and has a drug company executive on the author list will have had relavent information removed. Again, they will not introduce untruths, but they will put spin on findings and remove any negative/unflattering remarks.

(P.S This is my 7000th post).
 
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