GBL health hazards

[Loki Laufey]

Are there any health hazard related to GBL not found in GHB. I've skimmed through a number of journal articles and none of the articles mention any issues specific only to GBL. All (or almost all) sources state that GBL has exactly the same effects GHB, except longer duration and shorter onset.

Now, I can think of two effects peculiar only to GBL: its ability to dissolve stuff (easily combated by not consuming pure GBL) and the mythical acidosis (stated in a number of sources, but debunked here by f&b i think. dunno where i stand on this one). Then again, many people report a number of negative effects of GBL not found in GHB. Such as joint pains, stomach problems, headache, more severe withdrawal effects and so on. I haven't found any support for these claims in literature, but I keep hearing reports on these problems from first accounts. Is there any true to these claims? Or can all these problems be attributed to placebo (ie. it is a solvent, so it must be bad type of thinking), impurities found in GBL?

 

[Refluxer]

I don't think it is known by what mechanism GBL is converted to GHB. Until then we probably won't get any good answers.

SWIM drunk a lot of GBL in SWIM's days as it was a legal and good drug ISO. Sometimes concern arose on what the long term health effects were, and SWIM's still interested. But if it's bad he'd almost rather not learn about it considering how much SWIM drunk in total.

 

[~_Hiss_~]

Its converted by taking OH- ions out of your body (stomach, blood, proteins), which is a basic ion, so taking them away gives acidosis over time and possible tissue damage from ripping the OH- out.

I don't think it is known by what mechanism GBL is converted to GHB

Of course its known, people do it all the time with hydroxide salts such as KOH or NaOH

 

[fastandbulbous]

Its converted by taking OH- ions out of your body (stomach, blood, proteins), which is a basic ion, so taking them away gives acidosis over time and possible tissue damage from ripping the OH- out.

No it doesn't *sigh*, There are at least three threads out there where I've detailed that it doesn't take just an OH- ion, it also takes an H+ ion as well (in other words a whole molecule of water per molecule of GBL) This means that there is no ion imbalance caused by taking GBL. As for the mechanism, it's converted via plasma pseudoesterases which mean that for a given dose of GBL it's nearly all (90%+) converted to GHB within 10 mins. As GBL crosses the gut wall a hell of a lot faster, due to being a lot less polar than GHB and is then converted to GHB, This means that GBL produces higher peak plasma levels of GHB for a equal dose of both compounds (hence the faster onset, more side effects and more noticable withdrawl syndrome).

The acidosis is something that I had a lot of correspondance with raybeez about (he had a very large intake at one point) and it seems like acidosis does occur at very high dosage levels of GBL from there being more CO2 in the plasma (which is due to respiratory depression associated with very high doses). The thing is, if you were taking GHB at those doses you'd get acidosis as well from an identical respiratory depression.

Now there are some people out there who believe GHB is perfectly safe and GBL is highly toxic. That everything above has been explained in fine detail (with research to back it) seems to count for nothing and when pressed on they subject become very abusive; I hope one doesn't start that shit again here, but if so I'll collect together all the threads discussing it, which contain all the refs that both myself and raybeez have dug up. They always seem to keep refering back to one book, who's author's name I forget (a Dr somebody or other) saying 'he's a doctor so he must be right' - the fact that the research papers are written by doctors and professors seems to pass them by.

Anyway, if anybody is interested they can try searching this forum and OD and find those threads, but no doubt one of the aforementioned GHB zealots had chance to start, so I'll end up having to give links to those threads anyway!

 

[TheDEA.org]

That everything above has been explained in fine detail (with research to back it) seems to count for nothing and when pressed on they subject become very abusive

Heh, reminds me of a recurring pissing match I got in with an idiot on Usenet about whether or not the addition of amines to phenylacetones was stereoselective. First up against the wall when the revolution comes will be the people that can't tell whether or not they're scientifically illiterate.

 

[fastandbulbous]

^ but rant on like they're a Nobel lauriate! God save us from them...

 

[Loki Laufey]

hence the faster onset, more side effects and more noticable withdrawl syndrome).

In this case, higher doses of GHB would produce the same side-effects, but I've never heard about anything like this from regular GHB abusers, who complain about GBL. I guess, headache is something you can get both from GHB and GBL and stomach problems may arise if you drink undiluted GBL, but what about joint problems? Granted, this information is purely anecdotal, but then again I've heard quite many people complain about this kind of problems. And might the fact that people think that GBL is extremely toxic relate to the side-effects they get?

I got pains (in the bowel area) from GBL only once. It felt like I had to shit badly, except that my gut was empty. Other than that, I've never experience any bad side-effects from GBL.

 

[~_Hiss_~]

it seems like acidosis does occur at very high dosage levels of GBL from there being more CO2 in the plasma (which is due to respiratory depression associated with very high doses).

Or since a ghb metabolite is CO2

I believe gbl is more toxic. Maybe its just me though, considering it melts styrofoam and plastic, can irritate the skin and harshly burn the mouth and throat if not diluted enough,...

 

[snowshovel]

Something occurred to me this morning. OK, hydrolysis of GBL into GHB doesn't cause acidosis, as explained by F&B above. Therefore the consensus seems to be that GHB must be responsible for any acidosis that occurs.

However, is hydrolysis the only reaction that GBL undergoes in the body? Surely to a small extent it will "eat" at your stomach lining, same as it eats some plastics? Could a reaction of this kind be responsible for acidosis or other problems, even if it doesn't cause significant physical damage to your stomach?

Now, I'm not one of those GHB enthusiasts who believes GBL is terrible for you in comparison, but if there is any truth in what I've said it might lend some weight to their beliefs. However my knowledge of chemistry doesn't extend beyond GCSE level so I thought I'd post this here to let some more qualified people add their opinion (and in all likelihood, prove me very wrong).

 

[ketogenic]

Okay, I'll get myself into hot water again.
Has anyone ever taken a ph strip to pure gbl? its between a 5-6 (acidic).
If ghb is converted correctly (easily done) you can make it a 7 (like tap water).
My experience with both was when I tried gbl dosing once a day at night because I was dieting and using ephedrine (no other anabolics, asprin, ibuprohen...) and I would get extreme heartburn every time and would have my rolaids handy before dosing... after a week of use, I noticed my ankles were starting to hold a little water and get puffy. To make along story short, I went to the doc, got some bloodwork done and my liver enzymes were elevated. I discontinued use and in two weeks my enzymes were back to normal. I aquired some GHB (really good stuff, tasted like salt water) and used it at night for sleep during dieting and used it several times on the weekend instead of drinking alcohol while out with friends. went to the doc again for more bloodwork (he wanted to see me again in 6 weeks to double check) and my liver enzymes were fine. My diet, exercise, supplements , protein intake were identical in both cases. I ask why was the GBL live hepatoxic and not the GHB?
I lit the flame, come and get me. Seriously... just trying to spark intelligent thought.
I did do a search fastandbulbous and there were so many threads that didn't have the info I wanted, I got tired of reading.

 

[fastandbulbous]

However, is hydrolysis the only reaction that GBL undergoes in the body? Surely to a small extent it will "eat" at your stomach lining, same as it eats some plastics? Could a reaction of this kind be responsible for acidosis or other problems, even if it doesn't cause significant physical damage to your stomach?

What you describe as 'eating' plastics is actually just GBL behaving as a solvent - it doesn't actually mean anything in terms of it's pharmacology. That said, GBL does seem to be slightly irritant to mucous membranes in highly concentrated aqueous solns, so using it on an empty stomach might irritate the stomach lining - just make sure it's well diluted first before consuming (bit like the difference between spirits and beer). GHB has negative effects that GBL doesn't show though (the hypernatemia/hypokalemia - high sodium/low potassium) through use of large amounts of the sodium salt etc. Really it's 'swings & roundabouts' depending upon any already existing conditions (GBL - not good for people with ulcers; GHB sodium salt - not good for people with high blood pressure and kidney problems).

Has anyone ever taken a ph strip to pure gbl? its between a 5-6 (acidic).

As GBL isn't an ionic liquid when pure, it shouldn't register any sort of pH. If it's an aqueous soln it will show some degree of acidity due to hydrolysis to the carboxylic acid, which then dissociates to hydrogen and carboxylate ions (see next bit). Solutions of GHB in water will not be pH7 as the carboxylic acid group will increase the concn of H+ ions in a soln, resulting in a pH less than 7 (actual pH is dependant upon aqueous concn and the pKa value of the COOH group, but it's not much as most carboxylic acids are weak acids). It's the Na salt that will not be acidic in soln, but as mentioned above it has it's own set of problems attached to it's use.

If you don't believe me, get an organic chem book and look up acidity of carboxylic acids

 

[ketogenic]

Are you sure it was GBL and not 1,4BD? 1,4-Butanediol is converted to GHB primarily by the liver, while GBL on the other hand is converted in the blood. The combined stress of 1,4BD and ephedrine (or even ephedrine alone?) might have been enough to increase liver function tests.

Thats a possibility. I cant rule that out because I didn't purchase it at my local pharmacy.
fastandbulbous I appreciate your input but it was a little over my head. You brought up a point that lit the light bulb on top of my head. When I was using the (what I think was) GBL which I wrote I tested and was a 6 on the ph scale and was giving me heartburn minutes after ingestion, I was taking sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) to combat the heartburn. That could have caused the ankle swelling. Combined with raybeez though of it being 1,4 BD this could have caused the liver enzyme spike. we might have solved this one.
Thanks guys