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Tapering From Suboxone to kratom then hopefully just kratom as needed?

Luk0r

Luk0r

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Joined
Apr 4, 2017
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I have been using opiates for about 7 years now and I am going to be 24 in August, my doc is H and a lot of it, got started through the classic story of kid gets his hands on post-polio dad's morphine and opana and from then on it was history. Enough about that, Im just tired of thinking that I can go back and forward from subs to using H its really becoming a strain in my relationships and running my money out, plus when I don't have it I become very depressed (makes sense). But now I have myself down to 1 mg of subutex and haven't dosed today. Ordered about 5 oz of red vein kratom in the mail and its about an hour and a half away and im jonesing bad, not super sick its bearable, but it will get worse i've only been off sub for maybe about a day and a half now. Going to start out with about 6-7 grams and then report back here. Any suggestions or conversation would be great.
 
Try the kratom and see how it works. You can always use buprenorphine AND kratom together if one of the two alone isn't enough. Frankly, at least in my case, I have a hard time imagining how you'll be more successful on kratom alone than buprenorphine alone (buprenorphine is a much stronger drug). However, kratom does possess some interesting antidepressant properties.

I'd strongly suggest combining kratom with your buprenorphine if the kratom isn't enough on its own and see if you can maintain on that for any length of time. If that doesn't work, I strongly suggest looking into methadone. Methadone was the only thing that could satiate my cravings for heroin and other opioids. It's got a really bad rap as a medication and treatment, but it is actually the most effective form of current treatment as far as severe opioid use disorder goes (which it sounds like you are experiencing if buprenorphine wasn't enough).

While it isn't any kind of long term solution, I found iboga and DXM (and ketamine and MXE) as well as various other empathogens/entheogens to be tremendously helpful when I was getting sober. I first used them to transition from heroin to buprenorphine, and then later after buprenorphine didn't work out and I eventually got up the courage to try methadone towards the end of the time I spent on methadone to help me get off it and acclimate to a lifestyle void of opioid use. So they tend to be more useful while transitioning to one drug or lifestyle to the next, not as any kind of sustained maintenance kind of thing given potentially very harmful side effects.

I also suggest you work on finding lifestyle related support while you work through this process. Methadone got me clean, but it wasn't until I really got a handle on my lifestyle and mental health related issues that I really was able to start making significant progress. I'd suggest finding yourself a good doctor-therapit team, working with them, and seeing if you give with the traditional 12 step support groups. I also highly recommend looking into an MBSR course. They're hardly a panacea, but if you don't give with 12 step culture they can provide an introduction to alternative therapeutic communities that I for one have found infinitely more supportive.

Best of luck! Keep us posted on how it's going.
 
I totally hear where your coming from! Thanks for the response, suboxone would only satiate my opaite cravings if i was really naive and had been off dope for atleast a couple weeks, but switch the day you wake up sick from dope to suboxone never really helped it honestly made me feel more depressed because It wasn't the feeling I was looking for, I will look into methadone treatment I am sure there are a ton of clinics out here in the bay area that probably will help me for free if it costs to much or what ever Im on my moms insurance but it is really tough to meet my deductible before the end of the year to get to the point of paying a co pay, but yes I have taken methadone and honestly its super strong too and I can feel well off of like 15 mgs of that stuff catch a buzz off 30. but catching a buzz shouldnt be my main priority now aday getting to old for that ish', also planning on seeing a therapist, Im also currently on 2 -3 mg of kolonopin everyday and it kinda just is another annoying addiciton that doesnt really bother my but it doesnt really help me to have those pills around, oh btw this is

T + 23 minutes of taking about 10 grams of red vein and white java kratom mix and i think im starting to slowly feel something maybe placebo keep your fingers crossed for me!
 
I hope the kratom works out for you!

Yes, there are tons of good clinics in the Bay Area. And even if you have your family's insurance, you can always get on Medical (in fact I'd suggest you do this anyways, as there is no rule against having two types of insurance, especially if your family's insurance doesn't cover the treatment you need, whereas Medical would definitely cover MMT). If you do try MMT I suggest you look into a six month extended detox as opposed to maintenance right off the bat or a shorter, less effective month long detox.

Check out the SL Directory to learn more about methadone based ORT and a link to find a local treatment provider through SAMHSA's site (it's in the section on clinical treatment/methadone): http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/811238-SL-Directory-(lots-of-amazing-info-inside)

It can be tough to get onto methadone without a documented history of treatment failures or history of injection drug use, but you have already tried buprenorphine and it didn't work out so well, so that should be enough.

Let us know how the kratom works! If nothing it should provide a bit of a mood lift and some stimulation, although if you are at all tolerance to normal opioids it's unlikely you'll get "high."
 
Thanks ! Definitely feeling smiley... hope its not just placebo =/,

And as I said i was down to like .75 -1 mg of sub in the morning

i ended that this morning i didnt have the sub and the half life was still keeping me not super sick I think.. I dunno if I just did a gram of dope and felt shitty and felt like i needed the subs or something, im def not super dependent but theres a difference between like using dope and subs up until that point if i was like 3 months clean from everything the kratom might provide a better high correct?
 
Well, hearing more about your usage, I think you should feel something that helps with your cravings from the kratom. Give it another hour, and you'll know for sure. Like I said, don't expect much (compared to dope), but as long as you aren't going into the experience with unreasonable expectations about how it will affect you (doesn't sound like you are) you will probably be pleasantly surprised.

Am I correct in assuming your current goals related to recovery are to maintain on something that keeps you away from illegal activity and the whole heroin scene? In that case, it would be pretty cool it you found you could maintain on kratom for a while as you figure out more about what you want in terms of longer term goals and how you might achieve them. Kratom maintenance sure is a lot easier to deal with than buprenorphine or methadone, in that it isn't a control substance, and assuming you don't go off the deep end using too much of it (and it remains legal).

It can be a very useful antidepressant type substance (although much in the same way as tramadol can be, which if not managed properly can lead to a nasty dependency - this goes for kratom as well). Hopefully it gives you the energy and motivation to help restart your recovery process after struggling bouncing back and forth between heroin and buprenorphine (I know how demoralizing that can be!).

What you need now is stability in your life, especially as regards your substance intake. If kratom makes that possible, fucking awesome! If not, there are other options like methadone. As much as methadone and the clinic saved my ass, it is a huge PITA dealing with all the rules and regulations sometimes (and especially some of the more hardcore methadone patients and asshole staff members and doctors). So if you can get away with something like kratom, work it!
 
not really feeling anything significant, def took some anxiety away and i feel kinda chill, but i still just cant get that mental imagery of using out of my head.. even trying to do tasks. and yes as far as that goes, i would like to not be in the H scene really anymore it just is a bad habit, even if i do it every once in a while and can mantain sooner or later i go off the deep end, i really want to score right now, thank god my parents have all my cash or id be coppin in a heartbeat.
 
I'm sorry to hear you didn't get much relief. You could try supplementing your dose, though I wouldn't go too high as too much kratom makes one rather sick.

Generally kratom is only something viable for those of us who haven't developed a really sever habit - or if we have, only once we have a significant amount of time abstinence from opioids so as to eliminate any tolerance. Using kratom within a few weeks of coming off a serious habit for me never did much (it would take at least a month of abstinence of opioids before I could enjoy it at all, and even then it would tend to make me just crave "real" opioids).

You might still want to consider trying to combine your kratom and buprenorphine if you have any left. Like I said before, methadone was the only thing that really worked for me to actually eliminate cravings. If this doesn't work out for you, I highly recommend looking into a program for that. Luckily you're in a part of the country with great treatment options for ORT, so at least that is a big thing going for you. I was speaking with someone earlier today who lives far from any major city, and it's going to be a challenge finding the best care given his location.

Have you ever used DXM Luk0r? I hesitate to recommend it, given the side effect profile and how it can, while under the influence, eliminate all social skills (well, at least for me), but it can work really well at eliminating cravings during the detox period. If you can't hop on methadone right away (although you should be able to schedule an intake within the next seven days without any problems, if not sooner), and you're really concerned about jumping back into heroin, you might want to consider a first or second plateau dose of DXM.

Again, if you've never used DXM or any other dissociative you need to be very careful. They're generally a love or hate thing, and most people hate the way they make you feel. They will, however, eliminate next to all symptoms of opioid withdrawal and kill your cravings. They're just not something you want to consider using for anything other than the very short term.

Anyways, in terms of how you're doing right now, is there anything fun you can do to help get your mind off using? Like going on a bike ride or getting some exercise or immersing yourself in work or something?
 
Ive tried a bunch of things but i always end up with money and go back =/
 
I hear ya. Definitely look into getting on a methadone based ORT program. It's a huge commitment, but it sounds like your best chance for finding success sooner rather than later. If nothing else the clinic is great at providing you with structure! ;)
 
Yeah even just now at 8 pm i had to dose for a third time to keep wd away .

My experience w dxm is chugging bottles and eagin 50 of those nasty gelcaps to get fucked up not to us it as an aid, i feel i would need some powder dxm so i can measure accordingly..

i just dont wanna be on 25+ mg kratom a day... which is looking what it will be like to help at all...
 
That kind of dosage isn't uncommon for someone trying to maintain on it who hard already been dependent on opioids recently. Most people I hear from who use kratom for this dose 2-4 times a day.

It will require you to really be careful when you attempt to get off of it as you'll build up quite the tolerance and dependency, but that is how opioid type substances tend to work. Only difference between this and a more structured ORT program is that with ORT you have accountability, dose monitoring and help structuring an effective taper. But the principles in how it is supposed to work are the same (just without the added support of professionals, obviously).

One bottle of DXM can be very helpful in dealing with withdrawal (about 356mg or something, once to twice a day), and of course we're talking only stuff that contain no active ingredients other than DXM. It might be worth trying if you don't mind the dissociative experience and are desperately in need of something effective to control your withdrawal symptoms.

Still, like I gave the disclaimer before, DXM is not a long term solution, just something that can be really helpful detoxing (the only truly free pass I've ever had kicking was using DXM, as I think I mentioned - all I had to deal with was a couple farts from hell from the glucose and shit in the syrup and some minor insomnia for a couple days).
 
Yeah so I had fallen asleep after that last reply, or around 530pm my time, had taken last dose at 2;00, woke up and felt fully sick again so i redosed... the time period on that just sucks 5-6 hours isn't any period of time... but im still clean i guess.. just woke up at 7:30 and dosed... man i was in bad wd even from 1 mg of sub i was really expecting just some mild discomfort as I have got off the sub before using just subs, but like i said need something for that craving, I will look into the ORT and tell my parents, as i had to fucking beg them to let me get kratom basically.
 
I couldn't even make it two days.. sad , i went and got a little bit downtown today so fucking pissed at myself but i feel so much better.. fucking addiction....
 
Keep your head up, you're only really beginning this process <3

Dealing with family and this shit is sooooo hard. At least with ORT it is legitimate, accepted (at least among qualified medical professionals) and much more common place in terms of treating opioid use disorder like what you're experiencing. So that should be encouraging for them. Using legitimate medication is generally looked upon more favorably by families trying to use some for of self directed maintenance program, though that is not always the case.

Please let us know if we can support you in any way dealing with you family on this.
 
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