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Friend is buying "Mushrooms" off of the internet, says they're real...

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Ismene, there is a very wide variance in strains within the A.muscaria species complex (sensu lato) and indeed, within the sensu stricto A.muscaria var. muscaria itself, dependent on the country it grows in. The sweating and nausea are largely caused by muscarine, a quaternary ammonium cholinergic neurotoxin (and being a quat, its charged, and remains restricted to the peripheral nervous system, and does not pass the blood-brain barrier) not the psychoactive muscimol.

The content of this is very low, compared to some fungi that produce it, tiny in fact, in A.muscaria var. muscaria, some other mushrooms produce much more, such as Chlorophyllum molybdites, a lookalike of the parasol mushroom (Lepiota procera), the latter is delicious, if a little funny looking, whilst the former will sicken you so badly you want to die. Omphalotus spp. are another family that pack a load of muscarine, the glow in the dark, fluorescent jack'o'lantern fungi, which are often mistaken by inexperienced, or plain stupid foragers for chanterelles, and likewise, while they are unlikely to kill you, you will wish they had.

Inocybe species contain, often, much more still, and there are several, such as the red-staining inocybe, I.patouillardii which have enough to be lethal. Poisoning is, however, easily treatable, as unlike most fungal neurotoxins, a specific antidote exists to muscarine poisoning, atropine (a nasty poison in its own right, found in belladonna, Daturas, Brugmansias, and quite a lot of the rest of the nightshade family.

Not something you want to take, unless you are damn careful with it, and it causes memory deficits, as do other antimuscarinic delirients, BUT....there is a nifty little trick one can work with A.muscaria that I came up with.

The OTC IBS medication buscopan. It contains hyoscine butylbromide, hyoscine is otherwise known as scopolamine, again found in nightshades of various kinds, but the butylbromide form is like muscarine, a quaternary amine, and as such bears an electrostatic charge, that prevents its passing into the CNS and acting as a deliriant and amnestic. It is a specific antagonist for muscarinic acetylcholine receptors, that unlike atropine, datura seeds (which I have, carefully, used at a low dose with success, using maybe 10-15 seeds at most, as I have used deadly nightshade seed, again with great care, to prevent nausea on A.muscaria)

Its available OTC, won't cause any central symptoms, for it never gets there to do so, and of course, its a pharmaceutical product, so the doses are not uncontrolled, as they are with the nightshades, their friends and family, and will directly and specifically counteract not just the nausea potential, but the sweating, shivering and increased bowel movement speed.

I pick kilos of amanitas every season, enough to last me the winter, if not the year from a local golf course, where they grow not by the patch, but by the small private army. I dry them out overnight, by putting them on a foil-lined tray, flipping them over a few times, at the lowest heat my oven can go, and make tea. Tastes like meat (I believe, due to harmless traces of ibotenic acid remaining, its a glutamate agonist, so, I believe, is acting similar to MSG to produce what the japs and chinese call 'umami', the fifth basic flavour, that of savoury, which is mediated by glutamatergic receptors on the tongue)

Actually, I use them for cooking too, as well as medicinal and recreational use. A little dried, powdered A.muscaria really improves the flavour of steak and stews and is absolutely fantastic in chilli (with which I add peppery boletus, Chalciporus piperatus [formerly Boletus piperatus before reclassification, in the constantly changing naming system clusterfuck that is mycological taxonomy], this grows under the same silver birch trees that the fly agarics do, quite often found alongside them)

A full recreational dose of fly agaric is very different, as has been said, to psilocybin, very, very different indeed, it isn't even close to the feeling serotonergic psychedelics produce, but rather, induces a waking dream state at the lower end, to a rapid onset of sleep at the higher, with very intense lucid dreaming.

I think, perhaps, I might prefer a proper dose of a good, potent strain of A.muscaria to psilocybin mushrooms, I'm on the fence really, but I like them at least equally. I find taking them as tea acts quickly, and produces little nausea, at least with the strain that grows in the place I pick them from every year, I have little experience of those from other areas, aside from a little from various places mixed in with those from where I make my usual annual harvest. Aside from one place, a reservoir I used to go hiking and picking liberty caps as a little kid, where some amanitas I took from an adjacent coniferous forest, made up of I think, larch, spruce of some kind, and scots pine.

Those were ferociously potent, I took a usual dose in a tea, which absolutely fucking flattened me, asleep within perhaps 15-20 minutes, during which time, I had the most amazing lucid dreams, very intense and realistic (at least, as realistic as dreams can be, as wierd as their subject matter frequently is)

Doses lower than those needed to trip, make a good pick me up, or endurance booster too, specifically against cold, I've been out to shops quite some distance away before, wearing nothing on top, aside from a trenchcoat and my shades, in the middle of a bitter winter, and didn't even notice the cold, let alone feel unconfortable, even without gloves on. It just felt like a fairly mild day Whilst it won't prevent the physical harmful effects of overexposure to extreme cold, hypothermia, frostbite etc, as a tonic of sorts, it can give the endurance of a tank, and there is nothing as good as a hot cup of fly agaric tea, sweetened with a bit of honey, on an icy cold winter night.
 
It might do that to you Dwayne, but if you read a few trip reports you find people who say it makes them sweat uncontrollably for hours, feeling alternately sweaty and freezing and has no psychedelic effects whatsoever. Several of them say it's simply the effect of being poisoned. And yes, that's with dried ones.

There's no standardization of the mushrooms people take, so there's hardly any reason to believe they're even the right ones, or if they contain any muscimol at all! Muscarine, another alkaloid found in Amanita muscaria, produces exactly the effects you describe: sweating, nausea, headache, whereas muscimol is just a GABAergic deliriant sort of thing.

If you ask me, the ideal method of consumption for Amanita muscaria is probably to smoke them, as muscarine -- the alkaloid responsible for nausea -- is destroyed by smoking (since it's charged) and ibotenic acid is decarboxylated at high temperature (like THC). It's a similar situation to the various ergoline-containing plant seeds.

Though, personally, I'd avoid them entirely, because to me, consuming anything from the Amanita genus has "massive liver damage" written all over it.
 
Ismene, there is a very wide variance in strains within the A.muscaria species complex (sensu lato) and indeed, within the sensu stricto A.muscaria var. muscaria itself, dependent on the country it grows in. The sweating and nausea are largely caused by muscarine, a quaternary ammonium cholinergic neurotoxin (and being a quat, its charged, and remains restricted to the peripheral nervous system, and does not pass the blood-brain barrier) not the psychoactive muscimol.

The content of this is very low, compared to some fungi that produce it, tiny in fact, in A.muscaria var. muscaria, some other mushrooms produce much more, such as Chlorophyllum molybdites, a lookalike of the parasol mushroom (Lepiota procera), the latter is delicious, if a little funny looking, whilst the former will sicken you so badly you want to die. Omphalotus spp. are another family that pack a load of muscarine, the glow in the dark, fluorescent jack'o'lantern fungi, which are often mistaken by inexperienced, or plain stupid foragers for chanterelles, and likewise, while they are unlikely to kill you, you will wish they had.

Inocybe species contain, often, much more still, and there are several, such as the red-staining inocybe, I.patouillardii which have enough to be lethal. Poisoning is, however, easily treatable, as unlike most fungal neurotoxins, a specific antidote exists to muscarine poisoning, atropine (a nasty poison in its own right, found in belladonna, Daturas, Brugmansias, and quite a lot of the rest of the nightshade family.

Not something you want to take, unless you are damn careful with it, and it causes memory deficits, as do other antimuscarinic delirients, BUT....there is a nifty little trick one can work with A.muscaria that I came up with.

The OTC IBS medication buscopan. It contains hyoscine butylbromide, hyoscine is otherwise known as scopolamine, again found in nightshades of various kinds, but the butylbromide form is like muscarine, a quaternary amine, and as such bears an electrostatic charge, that prevents its passing into the CNS and acting as a deliriant and amnestic. It is a specific antagonist for muscarinic acetylcholine receptors, that unlike atropine, datura seeds (which I have, carefully, used at a low dose with success, using maybe 10-15 seeds at most, as I have used deadly nightshade seed, again with great care, to prevent nausea on A.muscaria)

Its available OTC, won't cause any central symptoms, for it never gets there to do so, and of course, its a pharmaceutical product, so the doses are not uncontrolled, as they are with the nightshades, their friends and family, and will directly and specifically counteract not just the nausea potential, but the sweating, shivering and increased bowel movement speed.

I pick kilos of amanitas every season, enough to last me the winter, if not the year from a local golf course, where they grow not by the patch, but by the small private army. I dry them out overnight, by putting them on a foil-lined tray, flipping them over a few times, at the lowest heat my oven can go, and make tea. Tastes like meat (I believe, due to harmless traces of ibotenic acid remaining, its a glutamate agonist, so, I believe, is acting similar to MSG to produce what the japs and chinese call 'umami', the fifth basic flavour, that of savoury, which is mediated by glutamatergic receptors on the tongue)

Actually, I use them for cooking too, as well as medicinal and recreational use. A little dried, powdered A.muscaria really improves the flavour of steak and stews and is absolutely fantastic in chilli (with which I add peppery boletus, Chalciporus piperatus [formerly Boletus piperatus before reclassification, in the constantly changing naming system clusterfuck that is mycological taxonomy], this grows under the same silver birch trees that the fly agarics do, quite often found alongside them)

A full recreational dose of fly agaric is very different, as has been said, to psilocybin, very, very different indeed, it isn't even close to the feeling serotonergic psychedelics produce, but rather, induces a waking dream state at the lower end, to a rapid onset of sleep at the higher, with very intense lucid dreaming.

I think, perhaps, I might prefer a proper dose of a good, potent strain of A.muscaria to psilocybin mushrooms, I'm on the fence really, but I like them at least equally. I find taking them as tea acts quickly, and produces little nausea, at least with the strain that grows in the place I pick them from every year, I have little experience of those from other areas, aside from a little from various places mixed in with those from where I make my usual annual harvest. Aside from one place, a reservoir I used to go hiking and picking liberty caps as a little kid, where some amanitas I took from an adjacent coniferous forest, made up of I think, larch, spruce of some kind, and scots pine.

Those were ferociously potent, I took a usual dose in a tea, which absolutely fucking flattened me, asleep within perhaps 15-20 minutes, during which time, I had the most amazing lucid dreams, very intense and realistic (at least, as realistic as dreams can be, as wierd as their subject matter frequently is)

Doses lower than those needed to trip, make a good pick me up, or endurance booster too, specifically against cold, I've been out to shops quite some distance away before, wearing nothing on top, aside from a trenchcoat and my shades, in the middle of a bitter winter, and didn't even notice the cold, let alone feel unconfortable, even without gloves on. It just felt like a fairly mild day Whilst it won't prevent the physical harmful effects of overexposure to extreme cold, hypothermia, frostbite etc, as a tonic of sorts, it can give the endurance of a tank, and there is nothing as good as a hot cup of fly agaric tea, sweetened with a bit of honey, on an icy cold winter night.

Mind-Blown-Stressed.jpg
 
Excellent post Limpet. I might dig out old Clark Heinrichs "Mushrooms in religion and alchemy" and have another read :)
 
Atara...what on earth does smoking A.muscaria have to do with ergoline-bearing plant seeds? the ergoline backbone is notoriously unstable and sensitive, its pretty much the courtney love of the psychedelic world.

I see no reason to avoid the entire Amanita genus. There are some particularly noxious members of that family, the main toxins being the cyclopeptide amatoxin/phallotoxin/virotoxin variety which cause delayed-onset severe GI distress followed by liver failure, these are present in A.phalloides (death cap), A.ochreata, A.bisporigera, and relatives, excluding the virotoxins, which are present in A.virosa, the destroying angel and its very close lookalike A.verna (these differ mainly by a color reaction to concentrated KOH or NaOH in A.virosa), although the virotoxins are not thought to be orally active, as like the phallotoxins they penetrate living cell membranes only poorly. Indeed, the blusher (A.rubescens, a sought after edible species, by some people), contains both phalloidin, and an unrelated, heat-labile haemolytic poison.

Also, in a handful of species, notably A.smithiana, A.proxima, and possibly A.pseudoporphyria contain allenic norleucine and derivatives of it, these don't show the insidious hepatotoxicity of the Phalloidea subfamily within the genus Amanita, but instead, cause a rapid-onset kidney failure after some GI distress.

(Rapid compared with kidney failure caused by the paraquat-resembling bipyridine nephrotoxin orellanine in the unrated Cortinarius genus which may take three weeks to a month before it shows itself to have been busily laying waste to your kidneys)


All of these have large, bulbous volvas (a sack/cup like structure on the base of the stem, at least partly/mostly buried in the ground, this comes from the egg-stage of the developing mushroom before it expands beyond a closed button, and a large ring on the stem with the exception of A.smithiana, which has a very scaly stem, really peculiar looking, and like A.muscaria, the stem ends in not a volva, but a scaly, bulbous end, A.proxima is white or off-white however, and looks bugger all like the fly agaric, stem morphology excepted (A.muscaria does have a ring, though, it can, like most fungi with an annulus on the stem, become detatched or fray away, but it still looks nothing like A.muscaria)

There is a white variety of A.muscaria, A.muscaria var. Alba but I would not touch that with a ten foot shitty pole that just got pulled out of bin laden's arse, for fairly obvious reasons (white spored, pure white Amanita....most certainly NOT to end up on anybody's dinner plate!)

The only orange Amanita species I am aware of that is really nasty, is Amanitopsis pulchella, renamed A.xanthocephala, an australasian species growing in association with, I think, but am not certain of which ones, some species of eucalypt, one mycological organization writer, reported on taste-testing a small piece (nibbling, then spitting a small portion of cap, or fruitbody if the fungus in question has no cap is in some cases quite an important test to distinguish some species from close lookalikes, in particular when dealing with the genus Lactarius, and Russula) and becoming so sick, that he broke his toes in the hurry to get to the bathroom. That one is orange, but its build is slight, compared to A.muscaria, looking almost like a small Russula, and the stem is also orangy, whereas that of the fly agaric is pure white.

Its size and build, colored stem, lack of ring and mycorrhizal association with eucalypts precludes it being gathered in mistake, A.muscaria grows in association with silver birch, although occasionally I have found it growing with pines.

A.rubreovolvata again is orange, but so is the pronounced bulb this species has in lieu of a volva, thought to be mildly neurotoxic, having effects on blood sugar also, and quite possibly a cholinesterase inhibitor. Orange, but quite unmistakeable for fly agaric.

Prozac-that pic, I assume, refers to A.muscarias alleged properties as a delirient? I don't know why people categorise it under the same group as the antimuscarinics, it doesn't cause the psychotic acting out, and whilst the delirium induced by nightshades and their ilk in SOMES ways resembles a waking dream (albeit a hideous nightmare usually), it most certainly is nothing close to the lucid-dream trance state caused by A.muscaria.

The panther cap, and A.gemmata (the latter is another white-spored, white capped no-no as far as eating goes) are far more potent, but should be avoided, the panther contains traces of something that I believe likely to be pretty damn nasty)
 
shulgin has mentioned this technique. he sprinkles MiPT onto mycyllium and intead of the mushrooms making psilocybin, their active component becomes Miprocin (if im not mistaken).... one problem is that MiPT substances have a far lower safety profile, and taking a large dose of these mushrooms could end up in overheating and seizures
 
Maybe but if you were to do this you should just dose normally anyway if only because it might be harder to predict how potent they will be. It seems unlikely though that those mushrooms will produce more 4-substituted MiPT compounds than that they would produce DMT compounds. Miprocin is a possible product in those mushrooms and miprocybin (4-PO-MiPT) as well I guess.

I think it was the German Ralph Gantz who pioneered this.
 
It might do that to you Dwayne, but if you read a few trip reports you find people who say it makes them sweat uncontrollably for hours, feeling alternately sweaty and freezing and has no psychedelic effects whatsoever. Several of them say it's simply the effect of being poisoned. And yes, that's with dried ones.

***THAT*** is why they are not popular as recreationals... a little too "heavy and deep" of a mental/emotional experience

Who has been telling you this? Have you ever read trip reports? The reason I find that people don't take them is because they feel sick, sweat for hours, have pounding headaches and don't trip.

Fuck you ISMENE. Yes I read trip reports, no one has been telling me anything. I am being 100% honest when I say I did them MYSELF numerous times following James Arthur's prep recipe of both drying AND boiling and had only a little nausea which a few tokes of week banished fully.

They have to be dried AND boiled... the water helps catalyze the reaction... drying alone is NOT enough to properly get rid of all the ibotenic acid.

I have indeed read trip reports and all the ones I read with these major bad side effects were ones where people ate them fresh, or ONLY air dried them and did NOT do both oven drying under heat, and ALSO the boiling step.

And as was mentioned by someone else above, perhaps I did a strain (big classic Amanita Muscaria with the red spots) with less of the muscarine which supposedly causes alot of the sweating & nausea.
 
Fuck you ISMENE.

Can you chill with the insults Dwayne? Like Shambles has told you before, this isn't your personal feifdom and all you're offering is your opinion not the gospel truth. Y'follow?

Why on earth would you think anyone wouldn't take a psychdelic because it offered a "heavy and deep" experience? Surely that's the whole fucking point of taking a psychdelic for the vast majority of us.

What's this method of preparation you say? If you take them dried you feel like you're dying but if you boil the dried mushroom you feel great? Is that the great unknown secret?
 
A number of users on PD and the rest of BL have a strong opinion on things, some of them keep it civil and some don't. I have come to respectfully disagree with lots of things buth you guys (and several others) said and also agree with others points you guys make.
But I do not appreciate the hostility either, Dwayne. Just keep it on-topic I don't want to have to step in at some point.

So is this thread going somewhere? I feel like part should be copied/merged into the Amanita thread and the rest closed...
 
Well, I apologize for the FU but I felt the "Who has been telling you this? Have you ever read trip reports?" was deliberately meant to be demeaning and insulting towards me., obviously. I have written here extensively about my experiences with amanitas and there's no reason for him to presume someone has been "telling me things." That was a jab and nothing more. This is not your personal fiefdom either, so quit telling me what to say or not to say.

Are you accusing me of making up stories? I'm not... my writing on amanita is based on about a dozen personal experiences with them, what I wrote is honest, no need to accuse me of regurgitating "things people told me." Hence the epithet, and again, I do apologize for the rudeness, I had an impulse to react to it in kind, but I will try not to do that and be more civil... Ismene should respect others' opinions as offered and not imply they are idiots or naive or liars as he is wont to do.

ANYWAY, I would say YES boiling IS a crucial part of proper prep. I *HAVE* read trip reports of course, and the ones with the worst experiences always seem to be ones where they are eaten fresh and after that the second worse seem to be those where they think air drying is sufficient. It's not... heat drying + boiling were the expert instructions from James Arthur I read when researching them before doing them, and every time following those exactly I had a very pleasant body experiences and intense otherworldly dream-trips, not once any of the horrific things Ismene insists they cause.
 
Prozac-that pic, I assume, refers to A.muscarias alleged properties as a delirient? I don't know why people categorise it under the same group as the antimuscarinics, it doesn't cause the psychotic acting out, and whilst the delirium induced by nightshades and their ilk in SOMES ways resembles a waking dream (albeit a hideous nightmare usually), it most certainly is nothing close to the lucid-dream trance state caused by A.muscaria.

Actually Limpet, I think he meant that your post blew his head off with sheer information overload! :)
 
Amanita Muscaria is probably what it is. It has to be boiled so it won't be toxic to you. Haven't taken it but it can get really intense according to some friends. I would just stay away from all drugs off the internet, bunk and probably a DEA operation.
 
I personally wont consume any fungi unless have picked it and prepared it myself. It's far too risky imo - especially over the internet, rather than knowing the person personally that you're trusting. I know that goes even for buying drugs off the street (doofs, parties etc), but some 'deadly poisonous' shrooms don't always kill ya straight away, it can be a long slow painful process over about 2 weeks. And you're fucked, there is no saving ya.

I say don't do it.
 
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