• Philosophy and Spirituality
    Welcome Guest
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
    Threads of Note Socialize
  • P&S Moderators: JackARoe | Cheshire_Kat

Free will

I can see how famous philosophers were mad as hatters.

They argue from the armchair purely out of logic - like arguing for arguements sake.

I keep getting the impression that someone put a 'bad link in the logical chain' and it's being overlooked.

I couldn't be bothered reading through all the different arguements to find where.
 
You guys sure argue a lot, especially over a piece of knowledge that's pretty instrinically useless.
 
nuke said:
You guys sure argue a lot, especially over a piece of knowledge that's pretty instrinically useless.
Now that you have judged it, what is left to discuss?

It's useless because nuke says so, and we shouldn't discuss it. What the hell were we thinking?



I agree with you, nuke, that some of this is getting worn out. But if you'll notice, there are several different ideas being discussed, and new people coming and adding new opinions.

I don't see what you were hoping to achieve with your post?
 
Medatripper Tates said:
we got sick of you mundane boring bigot.

It is rare an intelligent man shall resort to attacking the character of another, but there are always exceptions to any generalization.
 
its the same with anything that can't be disproven, but can't be proven either.

if you can't prove it with science, then as it stands, its a theory. once science can prove it, it becomes a fact. that its untill science can disprove it again.

it all comes down to your opinion on the matter.

some very interesting points though, thats the beauty of a theory. good convo
 
Last edited:
I've heard in recent years that many of the arguments for theology has been transferred over to the FW debate. Logically we do not have free will. (I'm not going to back that up, there are already a million websites with watertight, fully explained arguments out there for that). But no-one, even the people who truly believe free will is non-existent, can ever act as though they don't have it - this would make life pointless. I've heard this paradox compared to the absurdity of strong atheism - 'knowing' that God does not exist, but basing this 'certain knowledge' on arguments that can only be used to actually justify God's exsistence.

Philosophy is a fucking confusing subject :(
 
BollWeevil said:
Now that you have judged it, what is left to discuss?

I think it was just the overall bitter anger in the arguments that was bothering me. It's not a race for the prize.
 
Thick_as_a_Planck said:
I've heard in recent years that many of the arguments for theology has been transferred over to the FW debate. Logically we do not have free will. (I'm not going to back that up, there are already a million websites with watertight, fully explained arguments out there for that). But no-one, even the people who truly believe free will is non-existent, can ever act as though they don't have it - this would make life pointless. I've heard this paradox compared to the absurdity of strong atheism - 'knowing' that God does not exist, but basing this 'certain knowledge' on arguments that can only be used to actually justify God's exsistence.

Philosophy is a fucking confusing subject :(


Yeah you're right there...but I don't find it particularly difficult.

I mean, free will is logically impossible but I guess that since I have no choice but to behave as though I have free will I accept it on an intellectual level in the same way that I accept that genocide is happening out there, but I don't let it get to me too much. It's one thing to have reached a conclusion on something like this and another to let it fuck up your life.

I personally believe in determinism (despite the impossibility of proving it) and so I just choose to ride the winds of fate and enjoy every moment. It's working out alright.
 
Psychedelics_r_best said:
It is rare an intelligent man shall resort to attacking the character of another, but there are always exceptions to any generalization.


you come in here, judge, and not contribute anything productive to the thread. you can deal it out but not take it eh, way to be a hypocrite smart ass.

judging is attacking ones character, is it not?
 
^^ I can see this going south..

if you want to go toe-to-toe - there's always PM

...or the lounge :)
 
Dyno_oz said:
YES! Consciousness could be considered a higher level process.

Consciousness proceeds thought and action. - 'I am - therefore I think and act.'

One can sit in their own awareness, thinking and doing nothing.

Consciousness transcends logic in much the same way the intuituon works. Intuition can reach a correct answer without logical steps.
You're ignoring the underlying subconscious steps that led to that intuition. This is a problem that arises when you try and seperate consciousness from its physical neural basis. This is a major mistake that a lot of people inthis discussion are making. Another example is medatripper's hyothetical universe where only consiousness exists. This does not follow from anything we have learned about the brain up to this point. As far as we can tell, conscious processes are directly related to the goings on of the brain. Any attempt to remove consciousness from this context is non-sensical. Understanding this concept will remove much of the objections to the determinism argument.

Medatripper: Don't think that I'm somehow doubting your experiences. I believe that meditation is a very powerful tool that can lead you to greater awareness. The difference is that I believe that every single thing you haveever perceived has been a result of neurons firing in your brain. Why do you think your experiences lead to changes in your behavior? Because those changes are encoded in your neurons, which changes the way your brain responds. If your experiences were not connected with physical reality, then how is it that you can remember them when in normal life?
 
qwedsa said:
ill try to clarify his argument. its very simple conceptually but language doesnt serve well in this sorts of discussions... if you feel like reading for 10min, follow along:)

imagine a simple unicellular organism with certain proteins on its membranes. a predator comes by that wants to eat it, but there are a bunch of a certain molecule coming off the predator cell (we'll call it molecule A) and the prey cell developed a mechanism to detect these as a sign of a predator

when molecule A hits one of these proteins, the protein changes in shape, which in turn changes the shape of a nearby protein (its shape now makes it take an ATP and pass it to a collection of proteins)

these proteins function as a rotary motor, they twirl and flip a flagella protruding from that part of the membrane

the result is the unicellular organism zips away from the predator

this is life. it's all mechanical. it's an example of reducing complex events that you see in real life (e.g. human behavior) to the molecular level (and the moleuclar level is predictable). everything in biology is reducable to this level

now, why do 'choose' to grab something? because the molecules in your brain are doing their own thing. you have the illusion that you chose to grab it because your molecules are acting as a computer, and your brain/computer sees a number of possible actions it can do, and it chooses

what determinism says, is that all this thinking, planning, and choosing, is reducible to this physical level, and therefore it's all predictable given sufficient data because physical matter follows physical laws. tell me how htis doesnt make sense?

Again with the circular argument.

www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s189608.htm

Check it.
 
^^I don't know what that article's supposed to prove, but take a closer look at this paragraph:

The researchers suggest that as the parts of the plasmodium come into contact with food, they start to contract more frequently. This sends out waves to other parts of its body which tell give feedback signals as to whether to grow further or contract. Ultimately, to maximise foraging efficiency, the plasmodium contracts into one thick tube, running through the maze.

This is exactly what qwedsa was saying, notice how this "decision", or "intelligence" is a result of very primitive cellular mechanisms? What exactly is circular about his argument?
 
We are totally determined beings, I came up with two idea's that either we dident have free will at all and every single movement thought action ect was is being transmitted into us through the cosmos, or its kinda like we are dogs on a lease, we are allways going to be forced in one direction but we are able to explore as far as the leash lets us explore. Anyone ever had those moments on psychedelics where everything fits into place perfectly, like a movie script and then you go wow everything was ment to be:D. Or maybee our souls have free will and are guideing us throug hthe experience, but because mostly we only beleive we are the body and not the soul we think we are getting jibbed. Ok heres a better explination, the ego dose not have free will, the soul dose and guides us through experiences according to our learning that is taking part on this planet.
 
Top