First cycle, questions

Km013

Bluelighter
Joined
Nov 17, 2004
Messages
631
I've been considering going on a cycle of test enanthate 500 mg/week (250 mon/ thurs) for ten weeks and I have a few questions before i do so.


no prior cycles, just creatine, arginine, fish oil, whey on and off
23 y/o
6 foot
225
22-23% bodyfat (this is whats making me think twice about jumping right in)
Some PRs are 415 deadlift 235 bench 365 squat

first and foremost, from reading everywhere else i've probably got too much body fat to run a cycle at the moment, and i was hoping for your guys' input on what weight or body fat% would be adequate before starting. also, i think i should mention that i used to be morbidly obese until i was about 19. i was pushing 300 lbs with no muscle mass and was incredibly unhealthy. i then became obsessed with cardio and coffee and jumped down to about 170 in a year and a half or two years (i was probably over training, but i certainly lost the weight). because i was so big, i think i either have permanent extra skin on my chest or possibly even gynecomastia that didnt go away even when i lost all the weight.

I then became interested in lifting weights and have made decent progress (IMO), doing mostly strength training but a little bodybuilding as well. Unfortunately, although my diet was incredible compared to what it once had been (cereal, soda, and meat mainly...ugh i wretch when i think of how terribly i ate as an adolescent), i put on a lot of fat along with the muscle and ballooned back up to a stocky 250 because i was under the impression i needed to eat everything in sight. for the last year and a half ive been really working on my diet and lost 25 pounds while still maintaining my gains, but its been an arduous battle.

anyway, my supplier said all ill need for a first cycle PCT is Nolvadex at 40/40/20/20. everyone on this board seems to think all cycles need clomid, HCG, aromasin, etc. etc. and that worries me because I don't know if he has access to these. I'm almost positive that if i don't already have gyno in some form i will almost certainly get it if i run the cycle.

I'm honestly not sure im ready even though i already have the stuff, so i wanted to bounce my concerns off of you guys.

for shits and giggles my typical diet is like this

#1
2-3 eggs
4 or 5 strips of bacon, or some ham
oatmeal
grapefruit

#2
stir fry with chicken and veggies

#3
can of tuna
black or kidney beans

#4
some sort of protein, beef chicken or pork generally
veggies (broccoli, asparagus, sweet potatoes, green peppers, stuff like that)

#5
more chicken or tuna
and more beans

#6
ground beef
carrot
some almonds

this is pretty typical, its not always six meals, but always at least 4 and sometimes as high as 7...this is not including shakes.

So, what do you guys think? what goals should i reach/things should i change before starting?
 
What are your goals for this cycle? Your BF % is way too high in my opinion..Test is going to bloat you up and inevitably make your body retain water...I'm assuming youre cycling for aesthetic reasons correct?

Regardless, test is also an awesome fat burner but I feel you should be under say 15% bf before jumping on a test cycle
 
I wouldn't even say that my goals are to be more aesthetically pleasing necessarily, although im sure ill like the way i look after :D. I'm more just interested in gaining mass and strength and bringing lagging bodyparts up to par (for instance, chest and tris). I assume you are one of many people that will tell me my bf% is too high, which i came in expecting and agree with mostly. I don't mind being monstrously bloated as long as it comes with strength increases, i really just wanted to confirm that it would be a significantly better decision in terms of health and safety for my bf% to be lower before i started.

the only reason i was considering running the cycle soon was because my supplier (who doesn't seem very knowledgeable, but is a true freak-benches 575 raw and atg squats 600 for 5 reps) also did his first cycle with a bodyfat similar to mine and thinks i'll be absolutely fine. i was skeptical because both him and his brother are gifted genetically and were benching 400+ naturally. i'm probably coming from the opposite end of the specturm, being a natural endomorph and previously being obese.

i was looking at a few splits on some other forums and this one looked pretty tailored to my goals:

Day 1 Bench day
Bench Press 5x5 (Warm-up then do 3 work sets increasingweight each set)
DB presses 3x10
Skullcrushers 3x10
Pushdowns 3x10
Lateral raises (front side bentover) 3x10
Bent over rows or DB rows 4x10

Day 2 Squat day
Squats 5x5 (Warm-up then do 3 work sets at sameweight increase weight each week) Remember to work on picture perfectform every rep
Leg curls 3x10
Hyperextions 4x10 (Add weight if you want to)
Calve raises 5x10

Day 3 Aux bench day
Incline or Decline presses 3x8 (alternate each
week)
DB extensions 3x10
Pressdowns 3x10
Lat pulldowns 4x10
Upright Rows 3x10

Day 4 DL day
Deadlifts 5x5 increase weight each set use Sumo
or Conv.
Powercleans 3x5
Straight leg DL's 3x8
Hyperextions 3x10 (add weight if wanted


thoughts? i appreciate the input very much and welcome others to chime in as well
 
I wouldn't even say that my goals are to be more aesthetically pleasing necessarily, although im sure ill like the way i look after :D. I'm more just interested in gaining mass and strength and bringing lagging bodyparts up to par (for instance, chest and tris). I assume you are one of many people that will tell me my bf% is too high, which i came in expecting and agree with mostly. I don't mind being monstrously bloated as long as it comes with strength increases, i really just wanted to confirm that it would be a significantly better decision in terms of health and safety for my bf% to be lower before i started.

the only reason i was considering running the cycle soon was because my supplier (who doesn't seem very knowledgeable, but is a true freak-benches 575 raw and atg squats 600 for 5 reps) also did his first cycle with a bodyfat similar to mine and thinks i'll be absolutely fine. i was skeptical because both him and his brother are gifted genetically and were benching 400+ naturally. i'm probably coming from the opposite end of the specturm, being a natural endomorph and previously being obese.

i was looking at a few splits on some other forums and this one looked pretty tailored to my goals:

Day 1 Bench day
Bench Press 5x5 (Warm-up then do 3 work sets increasingweight each set)
DB presses 3x10
Skullcrushers 3x10
Pushdowns 3x10
Lateral raises (front side bentover) 3x10
Bent over rows or DB rows 4x10

Day 2 Squat day
Squats 5x5 (Warm-up then do 3 work sets at sameweight increase weight each week) Remember to work on picture perfectform every rep
Leg curls 3x10
Hyperextions 4x10 (Add weight if you want to)
Calve raises 5x10

Day 3 Aux bench day
Incline or Decline presses 3x8 (alternate each
week)
DB extensions 3x10
Pressdowns 3x10
Lat pulldowns 4x10
Upright Rows 3x10

Day 4 DL day
Deadlifts 5x5 increase weight each set use Sumo
or Conv.
Powercleans 3x5
Straight leg DL's 3x8
Hyperextions 3x10 (add weight if wanted


thoughts? i appreciate the input very much and welcome others to chime in as well

wow...those workouts actually seem good considering your goals...Basic and effective...
 
thanks man, i thought it looked good as well. come on artofwar, victor or maakshif, could use your guys' input :)
 
yeah i have 23 gauge terumo needles, they are 1.5 inches. do you think letrozole would be okay? or something more along the lines of arimidex or aromasin? i think my guy probably doesnt have access to the latter two. ive also read that some people take nolva during the cycle if gyno should happen, will that be adequate or would an AI be a superior choice?
 
Congrats on the weight loss and move into weight lifting. I was morbidly obese in the past (300 lbs as well) so can relate to your changes. I also think that it's great your hesitant to jump on the cycle and are looking for feedback regarding risks, etc.

One other reason to potentially not run a cycle at this point is your age. Our hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis is not fully developed until the age of 25 and it's my understanding that it is safer to wait until this system is fully developed before taking steroids so as not to interfere with this system prior to it being fully developed.

Regarding your body fat, I agree that it is an issue and think it's wiser and safer to lower your body fat more prior to starting a cycle. Even with a lower body fat (someone else mentioned 15% and I think this is a much safer bf% to have prior to cycling as well) you should have an AI on hand in case you experience symptoms of gyno developing so you can immediately take steps to counteract that.

I think that your PCT is fine and you don't need clomid. I'd suggest you look into test cyp over test e if it's available as it's my understanding that bloat is less of an issue.

Regarding your friend and his bf and first cycle, keep in mind that science regarding steroid usage is constantly evolving and improving, what was considered 'safe' 10-20 years ago has changed, it continues to evolve.

I don't think that HCG is mandatory but it helps, particularly if used during a cycle as your testes will not shrink and getting your body back to normal hormonally will be easier. There won't be as much 'recovery' needed if your testes don't shrink up to begin with. I'm also fond of my testicles and psychologically would be impacted if they shrunk up to the size of raisins. I like to keep mine the size they are, I use HCG during a cycle.

Don't rush things, you have plenty of time to cycle. Be smart, your not trying to be a pro body builder so there is no rush to pack on the muscle. Keep educating yourself about steroids, pct, etc. I studied steroids for 2 full years prior to starting my first cycle and am very glad I did. Take your time and continue to learn so that you can cycle safely and effectively.

And make sure you have ALL the things you need PRIOR to starting your cycle. Have your PCT on hand, have an AI on hand (I run one during cycles, having painful nipples is kinda weird lol) and seriously consider getting a source for HCG and running this during your cycle, I"ll never run a cycle without it.

So I'd say the dose of test is fine, the 2x/week is fine, PCT is fine, but I'd drop the bf to around 15% and wait another year or 2 prior to starting your first cycle. I commend you on your restraint, rather than jumping right in your asking for feedback which is good. I say keep that up, hold off in the cycle for a while, as long as you eat right and have a solid routine your going to continue to grow for years to come even without using steroids. If you misstep you might wind up with bitch tits or mess up your HPTA. You'll probably bloat up with a lot of water weight and get a lot of comments about how your face looks fat and wind up with backne. I've still got acne around my shoulders and chest area (where I had never gotten acne) a couple months since my cycle of test cyp wrapped up.
 
Body fat percentage for a healthy adult male ranges from 10-25% and you are at the upper end. Adding Arimadex (anastrazole) has shown to lower body fat (somewhat due to lowering the excess water you are retaining).

Your diet seems to include a large amount of beef as the main protein source. Beef fat, is the least healthy of all animal fats, and so you may want to begin eating more chicken breats, fish, and and some pork as the main protein source in your diet. And as much as I hate to say it, if you are really wanting to lose some body fat, you'll have to stop eating the delicious bacon :(

Also I have some research somewhere with a study about starchy foods and their aid in water retention. Starchy foods like potatoes, and rice(also to note: make sure you are not eating a lot of white rice, as it has no nutritional value it is simply fortified with some nutrients... better than nothing I suppose) contain a lot of amylopectin and some amylose. Rice with a large amount of amylopectin and little or no amylose, have a greater glycemic index( rice with more amylose has a lower GI). Food for thought.

I suggest you try and bring your BF% down to somewhere in between 15-20% before you begin your cycle. As far as the cycle goes, I would suggest running PCT because it will aid your body to "bounce back" to your normal hormone levels faster. Especially because we are discussing BF%--- with no PCT, such as clomid, you begin to have higher estrogen levels than testosterone levels about 3-5(it may take up to 5 weeks due to the excess BF% and because fat aids in the storage of lipophilic hormones) weeks after your last injection, and this will lead to you putting on more fat. Human Chorionic Gonadotropin(HCG) keeps your testicles producing Leutenizing Hormone (LH) and Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH). Your testicles become shutdown as soon as your blood has become saturated with exogenous hormones(usually around 21-28 days after you begin injecting testosterone cypionate) If it becomes available to you, use HCG during the cycle, 500iu twice weekly, beginning the 2nd or 3rd week of the cycle, and continue to inject through week 13 (assuming your are running a 10 week cycle). Running it an extra 3 weeks after your cycle aids in removing the exogenous testosterone that is free in your body. 3 weeks is determined by the plasma half-life of whichever ester of testosterone you are injecting (in this case testosterone cypionate).

Hope I didn't ramble on too long...
 
yeah i have 23 gauge terumo needles, they are 1.5 inches. do you think letrozole would be okay? or something more along the lines of arimidex or aromasin? i think my guy probably doesnt have access to the latter two. ive also read that some people take nolva during the cycle if gyno should happen, will that be adequate or would an AI be a superior choice?

Everyone's advice is spot on....letrozole shall be fine but I've heard that arimidex and especially aromasin are far superior..based on user reports that is....

it's ok to have nolva on hand for intra-cycle symptoms of gyno too...

Clomid should be in everyone's pct...as well as hcg
 
Awesome posts, guys. thanks for the feedback.

@ Titus - really feel good about everything you said and will take your advice to heart. and i feel like i should mention i'm 3 months away from being 24 ;), i'll do my best to wait another year.

@ DrHiney - agree completely about the starches. i very rarely eat rice and when i do it is brown. the only starches i eat a decent amount of are sweet potatoes (not really even normal ones anymore too much), and corn.

Ideally, if i can make it happen, im going to try and do the following:

test 1-10
HCG 2-13
whatever AI i can find, and start it 5 days before my first injection...would appreciate some input on what week i should stop?
nolva 11-15

what would you guys tweak?
 
Do not begin the Nolvadex until approximately 3-5 days after your last shot of HCG. So your cycle would look like this:

test 1-10
HCG 2-13
AI 3-13 (you could begin earlier, however your blood will not be saturated with the testosterone until approximately the 3rd week so I do not feel you will need it until then; also DO NOT take the AI and nolva/clomid together, they use the same metabolic pathways and will antagonize eachother)
nolva 14-18
 
Km, given your almost 24 I wouldn't sweat the age issue too much. 25 and over is ideal but 24 is much better than 19 or so. I think the bf is more of an issue, ur age being a minor one.

Pay attn to DrHiney's change to your PCT start/stop dates with the nolva!

Regarding AI's, did I read correctly that you do have access to letro? That's what I used during my last cycle, I think it's a fine choice, others might be better, not sure about that but letro will sure do the job. Also, the use of an AI during cycle will pose limitations on your ability to maximize muscle growth (it's a trade off to not get tits lol) A lot of ppl will just keep the AI on hand and use if needed if symptoms of gyno start to show. IMO the idea is to use enough so as not to get bitch tits and to avoid unpleasant symptoms/warning signs but only just enough. Keep the dose of your AI low if your just going to run it automatically, increase the dose if it's necessary. So long as you have enough of an AI on hand and use it as needed you'll be safe, gyno doesn't develop and take hold overnight, it's fairly easy to counteract it so long as you have an AI available to use.

You can google for the hcg, I've seen prices vary widely so take your time and try to get it for a good price. Be gentle when reconstituting it, you will need some BW to mix with it so make sure where you order it supplies the BW or you will have to get some of that separate to mix with the hcg in order to suspend it in the liquid BW so it's inject-able. You can find instructions on how to reconstitute it slowly without squirting the BW directly on it as it's fragile and you risk damaging it if you don't take care in reconstituting it.
 
You guys have been awesome. I'll make another thread when I actually start the cycle a little bit down the road. I think my boy can get some femara, so that'll probably be what I use.

Notes:
-lower bf% significantly
-finish AI before starting nolva
-perhaps more chicken and eggs, less beef.


Again, much appreciated.
 
Awesome posts, guys. thanks for the feedback.

@ Titus - really feel good about everything you said and will take your advice to heart. and i feel like i should mention i'm 3 months away from being 24 ;), i'll do my best to wait another year.

@ DrHiney - agree completely about the starches. i very rarely eat rice and when i do it is brown. the only starches i eat a decent amount of are sweet potatoes (not really even normal ones anymore too much), and corn.

Ideally, if i can make it happen, im going to try and do the following:

test 1-10
HCG 2-13
whatever AI i can find, and start it 5 days before my first injection...would appreciate some input on what week i should stop?
nolva 11-15

what would you guys tweak?

No nolva. Run the AI until the very end of PCT. Do not run HCG during PCT. Use clomid three weeks after your last shot of test for 4 weeks. Day 1&2, take 200mg. Then take 100/100/75/50. Keep the nolva buried away and hope you don't need it. I highly doubt it since all you are running is test. Arimadex and Aromasin are great AIs. Taking vitamin C (3000mg) ED also helps....it's actually an AI believe it or not. Good luck.


/V
 
Top