Feminism!

[Pleonastic]

Kinda sucks that it looks like I started this thread, and with a mention of being on topic for the thread this originally came from!

You guys might want to edit my post and put how this all started or something, or it's going to die kinda quick...

 

[vanth]

It was an analogy.



I know you don't want to debate it, though you said that after the fact. I was pointing out that you stated your beliefs but then didn't take to them being questioned very well. Perhaps they're better left unsaid if you don't want someone to pick them apart... Not at least while I'm around.

I don't have any problem with my views being questioned. I do have a problem with someone inferring that my views are silly or amusing. I also have a problem with someone thinking they automatically know what my views are when I say I'm a feminist, and it turns out that they don't at all. You can call me uptight, or humourless, or even a feminazi, but I am offended when laughter is the response to my statement that I am a feminist, because that suggests that the issues feminists discuss and fight for are trivial and laughable.

 

[Samadhi]

Um, yes it did.

See what I did there.

If you can't see the relevance, I can't really spell it out anymore for you.

Please do, i'm high on codiene because i'm suffering from secondary dysmennhorea due to endometriosis - and i'm menstruating. I've run out of tampons - anyone have a spare razor-blade?

 

[Doppelganger]

I think rated e's point regarding men and razor blades is fair, especially if the male works within an industry where they're expected to keep a tidy appearance.

For some men, going to work looking scruffy is no more of an option than it is for a women to leave the house while menstruating, without inserting a tampon (or placing a pad). If people notice in either situation, they're going to look at us funny and probably think less too.

 

[ValeTudo]

Fucking well said R.E & Maddog.

 

[wizekrak]

They should just call it equalism or egalitarianism, it would remove 99% of the stigma and drama associated with feminism.

 

[ByronStar]

er sorry but I would rather go out with a hairy face than a big patch of blood on the back of my skirt - this is a reality by the way for women if one's having some ghastly period leakage (anyone seen that hideous ad for tampons with the woman in the white skirt sitting on a chair?) or the beaver one for that matter ... I'm going off the track a bit.

I can see what's going to happen here - all the guys will go "good on you mate" and all the girls will get mad. Silly and quite predictable really

I do think that these days most women are better off - in some workplaces (male dominated ones like IT) they do quite well in the promotion stakes, to the point where it seems unfair (gov. departments etc). I've seen some pretty dodgy things from women (23 year olds wearing revealing clothes and flirting at after work drinks who then get to act in the manager's shoes when he goes on leave). I've seen this, and it makes me that stupid me wasted all those years at uni and working for years ... I've also seen these same girls flirting, wearing low cut tops, mini skirts etc, then threatening harrassment if they get unwanted attention - hmmm, wasn't that the point!? This is possibly why women don't seem respected in the workplace sometimes - these girls should wake up, they're not always going to look so young and pretty and they make the rest of us (most women) look bad.

And yes, women do get to stay home and have kids I suppose although to be honest I don't know many who do, given the price of houses, groceries etc, it isn't 1954 after all. Most of the women I know have a pretty hard life when they have a baby, in that they have to work full time, be a mum, and try to have some 'me' time.

I actually agree with the above post - that's simple and fair. Feminism certainly had its place 30 years ago (in a more militant sense to get the point across), but being a women isn't really a barrier to employment anymore, in most occupations anyway (although I admit it would be really difficult being a police officer or being in the armed forces).

 

[Flinch]

Firsty, with the razor and the tampon/pad thing, I find it retarded that gst applies to razors and not to pads/tampons. It shouldn't apply to either, since both are a necessity (albeit, tampons more than razors, but still, both needed if you want to hold down a professional job.

Also, vanth, I think you took Rated E's "lol" way, way to personally. He was laughing at feminists. I think what needs to be understood here, is that as with all stereotypes etc, theres a gradient, basically, radicalist and i dno the exact word, but you get my point.

I dont find anything really that funny about non radicalist feminists, that just want equal rights, pay, etc, i think thats respectable and normal. But radicalist feminists, I find bloody hilarious, ive seen so many of these women campaining for things that arnt just equal to woman, but exesivly pro woman, to the point where if these people got everything they wanted, men would be treated like women in the 1910's etc.

Also, i think Rated E made some great points, which you just brushed away saying he is a "misinformed 20 year old boy" Which if you found him saying lol at feminists "rude", would, imo, make what you said, just as, and probaly even more so rude.

 

[Samadhi]

er sorry but I would rather go out with a hairy face than a big patch of blood on the back of my skirt - this is a reality by the way for women if one's having some ghastly period leakage (anyone seen that hideous ad for tampons with the woman in the white skirt sitting on a chair?) or the beaver one for that matter ... I'm going off the track a bit.

This was the point i was trying to make last night.

I can see what's going to happen here - all the guys will go "good on you mate" and all the girls will get mad. Silly and quite predictable really

Absolutely.

I do think that these days most women are better off - in some workplaces (male dominated ones like IT) they do quite well in the promotion stakes, to the point where it seems unfair (gov. departments etc). I've seen some pretty dodgy things from women (23 year olds wearing revealing clothes and flirting at after work drinks who then get to act in the manager's shoes when he goes on leave). I've seen this, and it makes me that stupid me wasted all those years at uni and working for years ... I've also seen these same girls flirting, wearing low cut tops, mini skirts etc, then threatening harrassment if they get unwanted attention - hmmm, wasn't that the point!? This is possibly why women don't seem respected in the workplace sometimes - these girls should wake up, they're not always going to look so young and pretty and they make the rest of us (most women) look bad.

I also agree entirely, being employed by a govt agency, the rights of women are fair and equitable. However, there is still an aspect of the 'old boys' network, but it's deeply undercover now, and doesn't impact on others very much.

And yes, women do get to stay home and have kids I suppose although to be honest I don't know many who do, given the price of houses, groceries etc, it isn't 1954 after all. Most of the women I know have a pretty hard life when they have a baby, in that they have to work full time, be a mum, and try to have some 'me' time.

In my organisation, women now have the opportunity to take 14wks paid maternity leave - having said that, there are other countries, such as Canada that will offer both parents up to 1 years leave when a bub is born.

I actually agree with the above post - that's simple and fair. Feminism certainly had its place 30 years ago (in a more militant sense to get the point across), but being a women isn't really a barrier to employment anymore, in most occupations anyway (although I admit it would be really difficult being a police officer or being in the armed forces).

I also agree with wizekrak - as for the armed forces, i know 3 women who are in the military and i don't envy them for one nanosecond. Especially one of my girlfriends in the navy - especially when she goes to sea. The horror stories that come back with her make my toes curl - in the not good way.

 

[Rated E]

Samadhi, it's possible that you missed the point of my analogy. That's ok. I do realise that Menstruation and period pain are not pleasant for most women. However I was not comparing physical pain with pain. I was comparing a necessity with a necessity. Think about it... How many males working in an office would do fine to just let their facial hair grow wild?

er sorry but I would rather go out with a hairy face than a big patch of blood on the back of my skirt - this is a reality by the way for women if one's having some ghastly period leakage (anyone seen that hideous ad for tampons with the woman in the white skirt sitting on a chair?) or the beaver one for that matter ... I'm going off the track a bit.
I can see what's going to happen here - all the guys will go "good on you mate" and all the girls will get mad. Silly and quite predictable really

lol

Though what about this:

I think rated e's point regarding men and razor blades is fair, especially if the male works within an industry where they're expected to keep a tidy appearance.

For some men, going to work looking scruffy is no more of an option than it is for a women to leave the house while menstruating, without inserting a tampon (or placing a pad). If people notice in either situation, they're going to look at us funny and probably think less too.

A female agreeing with me, on the tampon and razor blade analogy no less.

I actually agree with the above post - that's simple and fair. Feminism certainly had its place 30 years ago (in a more militant sense to get the point across), but being a women isn't really a barrier to employment anymore, in most occupations anyway (although I admit it would be really difficult being a police officer or being in the armed forces).

Excellent point.

 

[happyus]

feminism still has a place now, just a different kind of feminism. second wave called for equality on one hand, but on the other would relinquish no 'private sphere' rights to men and so a backlash occured. you cannot have a dichotomy of the sexes and only change the rules for one side.
Yes i am female and yes i consider myself pro to some of the forms of feminism,but not too others. I do not see our society as equal, that goes for both sexes. men should have the same rights as women and vice versa, i would not go as far as sharing Neil Lyndon's view that men should have the right to make a partner keep a baby rather than terminate,but i do think that it is unfair in our 'equal and post feminist' society that men get no say in child care/ child rearing, gets little to no chance to take time off when their little one is born.....if women are to be made completely equal in the public sphere men should be equal in the private. this was the failure of second wave feminism for me,concentrating purely on female inequality.

 

[eggman]

Any proactive movement aimed towards removing bias or injustice is always welcomed in my book. Without many of the leading feminist figures through out history I think our society would be well behind the 8 ball. Regardless of whether one considers those people to be radical or not is beside the point, if the goal is to reach an equitable solution then it should be all rules are off.

Is feminism relevant in today? Definitely. Whilst we are clearly leaps and bounds ahead those times where women where excluded from employment, universities, public places and even voting in an election - subtle inequality is still rampant in society.

Confusing messages are conveyed daily in the media. Messages which still perpetuate what Naomi Wolf defined as the Beauty Myth almost 18 years ago. These messages can be as subtle as a model advertising clothing/cosmetics or as in your face as a program such as the Biggest Loser.

In the commercial arena, especially the field I work in, women are often overlooked for employment or advancement within a company. I recall an event where several applications where being reviewed for a position and the more qualified female applicant was not chosen from the short list of candidates because due to her age, and obviously her sex, she was most likely to become pregnant within the next 24 months and hence take maternity leave.

So in summary Feminism is a welcome movement in my world and in man ways it’s a movement that should be considered a model for any other movement that seeks to achieve equality within society.

To boil this discussion down to GST and its implications on razor blades and tampons is over simplification of a much bigger topic and in many ways debases those pushing the point. I can see why someone with strong views on the topic would chose not to engage you in conversation.

 

[lady grey]

Samadhi, it's possible that you missed the point of my analogy. That's ok. I do realise that Menstruation and period pain are not pleasant for most women. However I was not comparing physical pain with pain. I was comparing a necessity with a necessity. Think about it... How many males working in an office would do fine to just let their facial hair grow wild?

Society putting expectations on men that they should be clean shaven in certain professions is very different to tampons/pads being a sanitary item and a pretty important part of personal hygiene.

If men let their facial hair grow, do they smell? Can they walk comfortably? Does back pain keep them from being able to get out of bed? I would go on but you get the idea.

Women who are in the workforce aren't able to just "stay at home" while they are menstruating. What would men have to say about equality if that were the case?

You made other valid points rated, and i can see where you are coming from with using that analogy, but can you honestly not see why so many women don't see them in the exact same light?

 

[The_Idler]

tbh i'd be fired if i didnt shave.


sooner than if i took a few days off every 4 weeks or so.

 

[lady grey]

tbh i would be fired if i took a week off every month. I'm not saying it is right that razors don't have GST omitted either, just that the two are not very good comparisons when it comes to necessity.

 

[ByronStar]

While there is still a glass ceiling for women moving up the ladder professionally, particularly in the private sector, women have a lot of power in the workplace generally, and I don't think people are aware of this. Sometimes this power is abused and I don't think feminism is about that.

As far as media images go, yeah nothing worse than some skinny model with perfect air brushed skin and breasts to ruin your day but in saying that - who is perpetuating these images? Women! The most annoying, confusing, damaging methods of promoting so called beauty are women's magazines, especially those directed at young women and these magazines are staffed by women. Women are the ones who buy the make up, the perfume, the shoes, etc etc (I am guilty of this by the way - my own worst enemy prob).

Feminism to me is about equality but frankly I don't see too much of that these days, for a lot of people, including my clients who have impairments and illness which make it difficult for them to keep or get jobs .... so to me, being a woman is not a barrier to anything really.

 

[Samadhi]

^ That is exactly my point... I guess it's subjective, but to me, tampons, pads and other personal hygiene products are far more necessary than razor-blades.

I think it's entirely unfair that men are required to shave their faces or face termination of employment - and i think it's utterly ludicrous that tampons and pads are considered a 'luxury item' - but to me, the level of necessity is vastly different - men need to shave to look a certain way - women need tampons and pads to stop a flow of blood...

This has nothing to do with feminism really, it's about equality.

Rated E, i didn't miss your point- i just didn't agree at all with it - i don't see the similarities in necessity between the two. One (razors) are used for aesthetics, and one is used to staunch the flow of blood every month. To me, one is a requirement, and the other (tampons, et al) are a necessity.

They are needed in different ways, but i just don't agree that one is needed as much as the other.

 

[wizekrak]

The issue with feminism is that it's such a broad ideology. One person's concept of feminism is often different than another's. In it's rawest sense, feminism states that men and women shouldn't be constrained by gender norms. Basically a girl should be able to do all the stuff a guy can do and vice versa.

The problem arises when militant feminists get a lot of press. Basically they take the concept of feminism and turn it on it's head, basically stating that women should have more than men (which is completely against feminist ideology. Think of radical feminism as the opposite of male Chauvanisn.

In the modern world I think feminism has become much less neccessary than it was 40 years ago, but it's still relevant, especially in hugely patriarchal cultures. In the secular west government dictates that sexism is illegal, thus removing much of the need for feminism. Of course the majority of the world isn't that progressive, and so sexual decrimination still exits. In the grand scheme of things it's still very much a man's world, and will most likely remain that way, since in everywhere but first world countries "might makes right".

 

[ByronStar]

^^ true, when you start thinking about developing countries or religions which discriminate and abuse women and where women don't have access to medical care, divorces and so on it's a whole different ball game.

 

[Samadhi]

tbh i'd be fired if i didnt shave.


sooner than if i took a few days off every 4 weeks or so.

I don't know about the firing due to not shaving - in my organisation, there is no beard-discrimination (lots of men have beards)... but i know many, MANY women that have been reprimanded (me included) for having regular days off each month due to period pain... having said that, i have endometriosis, so the pain that i can and have felt is utterly debilitating, sometimes to the point where i have been hospitalised for it. I had my 4th operation for it in November 2006.