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Fear of Death - Meditation vs. Entheogens

PsychicBuBBLe

PsychicBuBBLe

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Jun 20, 2011
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Has anyone here conquered their fear of death? If so, how? So many stories I've read about psychedelics clearing the fear but I'm too chicken shit to take them. Have had plenty of experiences (some extremely religious/spiritual) on cannabis. Paranoia took hold of me after a while so I stopped. I wondered if meditation could possibly help. I once heard Terrence McKenna say that meditation can't achieve what psychs can. Any thoughts/advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
 
I once heard Terrence McKenna say that meditation can't achieve what psychs can
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If you choose to define 'meditation' as 'sitting quietly and thinking [perhaps with a side order of deep breathing], I would say that Terence is, frankly, full of shit. While psychedelics may indeed offer far more in the way of 'religious experience,' I doubt highly that a person with an IQ of 80 who took daily doses of Ayahuasca would come to any deep conclusions regarding the certainty of their mortality when compared to someone with an IQ of 180 who mostly sat around and thought a lot. And for what it's worth, I've found the latter to be a considerably healthier way to achieve personal understanding, at least in the long run. My own conceptions of 'meditation' aside, Terence McKenna did devote a humorous portion of his lectures to contrasting so-called 'practitioners' or 'yogis' who would repeatedly inform him that he was just "doing it wrong" with shamans who guide initiates on 'vision quests' in which any notion of "doing it wrong" is basically irrelevant.

I mention my own understanding of what meditation actually is because I would like to ask the following: Why must all wisdom regarding the human condition be delivered by a such a (naturally) rare, climactic, and highly volatile form of psychic upheaval as a psychedelic or 'religious' experience? That is, why must one arrive at spiritual knowledge solely by means of violent alterations of consciousness as opposed to simply thinking and reading a lot about ideas that intrigue or compel them? If you find yourself believing wholeheartedly that the answers to all or most of your big cosmic questions will be delivered by means of some psychedelic potion or a deep breathing session, I strongly suggest that you reevaluate what exactly it is that you intend to gain from such pursuits.
 
I'm a little weary of replying to a psychic who sees 80 views when I see 78 8o
But I will try to speak my mind as openly as possible! I've taken a lot of psychedelics, and smoked large doses of DMT a number of times. I can honestly say that although I am happy to let go, as it were, during a DMT trip, I still fear death. I think that is healthy. Only people who are suicidal have no fear of death, I think? Psychedelics and meditation (which I've never seen the point of, personally), are totally different experiences than actually crossing a line from which there is no return. I can accept death as a part of life, but I wouldn't ever want to lose my fear of it. Anything people pretend to know about death is just a guess, so why would anyone have no fear of a final conclusion to everything they have ever known? Hopefully it will be a long way off for me, but I can't believe that any amount of psychedelic use would make me lose my fear of death. If I did, what would be the point of attaining that carefree state?

Regarding meditation vs. psychedelics. I see it to be similar to a scientist who uses instruments to alter perception, and so gain a greater understanding. The microscope, as the crudest example. Anything created simply by the mind alone, in it's natural state (meditation), can't logically match the combined experiences of changing perception through the use of drugs, can it? That's not to dismiss meditation, but the variety of experience through drug use is obviously greater. When meditation and drug use is combined, it is greater still. I'm sure some people who meditate have more profound revelations than some recreational drug users, but assuming the same person who meditates started to smoke DMT frequently, their perception of the world would naturally increase. Regardless, a fear of death is not a desirable aim, in my mind. And I make no claim that psychedlics make people smarter, just that their perception of the world is invariably increased, regardless of whether this has negative or positive effect on the person in terms of their interactions within society.
 
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PA - My wife says the same thing. I have this thing in me where I feel the only way to overcome this fear in me would be to take psychs. She suggests meditation being gentler and more therapeutic, coupled with reading different books on the subject.

derekseyes - Why would I not want to live without fear when it cripples a large part of my life? Of course I want to be carefree... I don't understand your response/question.
 
Loss of fear is good, but loss of the fear of death? If you didn't fear death then you wouldn't care if you died? Am I being too literal?
 
PA - My wife says the same thing. I have this thing in me where I feel the only way to overcome this fear in me would be to take psychs. She suggests meditation being gentler and more therapeutic, coupled with reading different books on the subject.
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In fear of being accused of heresy, I find it imperative to share the following: Psychedelics have simply never 'worked' for me the way they seem to work for others w.r.t. to so-called 'religious' experiences and whatnot. I don't doubt that these drugs are capable of producing profound and life-altering changes in perception and emotion, but I have a very hard time accepting the vast majority of 'received wisdom' (whether drug-derived or not) as a legitimate source of personal understanding regarding issues of great depth and/or complexity. I mean, sure, an individual's experiences are certainly valid on their own terms, but from whom would you prefer to take advice re. a deep or personal quandary of any genuine importance - some guy/gal under the influence of a disorienting psychoactive substance whose principle attraction is the severe mental confusion and sensory distortion that it induces; or a professor of philosophy? I don't know, maybe this is just snobbery on my part; I guess it's not really much of an either/or dilemma in the first place - someone could easily exhibit both the former and the latter properties.
 
I find that psychedelics produce the opposite of mental confusion (LSD as the only exception). Wisdom is culturally defined, I only say that in terms of the range of experiences they can produce, drug use offers more than just meditation. That goes for all drugs, as amplifiers of certain traits of personality, to better understand the sober personality. I'm not saying it's necessarily positive to use drugs. Like in science, the more you look at things from different perspectives, the more you know of the thing you are looking at.

And I still don't understand why overcoming fear involves having no fear of death. The two are separate to me. It is unhealthy to live in constant fear, but very healthy to be afraid of death.
 
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PA wrote: " but from whom would you prefer to take advice re. a deep or personal quandary of any genuine importance - some guy/gal under the influence of a disorienting psychoactive substance whose principle attraction is the severe mental confusion and sensory distortion that it induces; or a professor of philosophy?" Well, both have valid points. I've heard from people who've had extremely powerful ayahuasca experiences and philosophy professors/experts alike. 1 is no more valid than the other. It just seems that the professors are speaking from a place of research/theory and the person on psychs is speaking more from experience. It is in that experience I feel is imperative for certain understandings. I guess I"m just trying to figure out if you can overcome certain fears/obstacles without experience. Rather, research, guidance, and meditation.

derekseyes - I don't understand it myself. All I know is that this fear of death consumes most of my life. I can't even enjoy a joint without falling into dark thought loops of death.
 
In my culture we say huh! What do you want? Acceptance of death? The fear of death I speak of isn't a fear as such, just not a willingness to go there. Weed won't help with paranoid thoughts. McKenna's idea of going further than meditation is not with the intention of overcoming a fear of the inevitable. Try meditation. Why do you fear death? Are you ill?
 
No, I'm not ill. I just think of what it would be like and how many people I would hurt (fam and friends etc..). I think of suffering. Being alone. What happens after, if anything. All that bullshit.
 
P A said:
If you choose to define 'meditation' as 'sitting quietly and thinking [perhaps with a side order of deep breathing], I would say that Terence is, frankly, full of shit. While psychedelics may indeed offer far more in the way of 'religious experience,' I doubt highly that a person with an IQ of 80 who took daily doses of Ayahuasca would come to any deep conclusions regarding the certainty of their mortality when compared to someone with an IQ of 180 who mostly sat around and thought a lot. And for what it's worth, I've found the latter to be a considerably healthier way to achieve personal understanding, at least in the long run. My own conceptions of 'meditation' aside, Terence McKenna did devote a humorous portion of his lectures to contrasting so-called 'practitioners' or 'yogis' who would repeatedly inform him that he was just "doing it wrong" with shamans who guide initiates on 'vision quests' in which any notion of "doing it wrong" is basically irrelevant.

I mention my own understanding of what meditation actually is because I would like to ask the following: Why must all wisdom regarding the human condition be delivered by a such a (naturally) rare, climactic, and highly volatile form of psychic upheaval as a psychedelic or 'religious' experience? That is, why must one arrive at spiritual knowledge solely by means of violent alterations of consciousness as opposed to simply thinking and reading a lot about ideas that intrigue or compel them? If you find yourself believing wholeheartedly that the answers to all or most of your big cosmic questions will be delivered by means of some psychedelic potion or a deep breathing session, I strongly suggest that you reevaluate what exactly it is that you intend to gain from such pursuits.
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Highly intelligent and respectable post.

Good job.
 
Death is a natural part of life. What makes you afraid of it? You might be afraid of pain, afraid that death hurts, but not afraid of death. I don't understand the question.

I don't fear death. I fear pain. I've gone to nine funerals in the last two years. Five of them were young men who had been shot by other young men at various times and in various places. A close friend of mine got shot (and survived) last week just down the street. Death is alive and well in So Cali.

One funeral was that of a young woman, 18 years old, that I tutored through her whole senior year while she was getting getting chemo. We got through so much school work...she wrote fine essays... and right after she got her diploma, the cancer got her. I have cried with mothers and fathers while standing next to the precious son or daughter laid out in a coffin. The sorrow from the loss is enough to make a person go insane, I swear.

The other three funerals were my friends' parents. Once you reach a certain age, your parents die, that's just the way it goes.

My parents are both still living and I love them now more than ever because I know it's going to break my heart when they go. I appreciate them. I tell them I love them every day. I fear their deaths because I fear pain. It is profoundly unavoidable. Yet tears well up in my eyes at the thought of their deaths.

I am not afraid of my own death. I know it is with me at all times. I'm never more than one breath away from my death.

Its a dead mans party. Who could ask for more? Everybody's coming, leave your body at the door.
 
Well, I'm glad you are all very nonchalant about the subject but I'm not. I guess I just fear the unknown... what happens after, what happened before, will questions be answered, will I see loved ones, etc... And yes, the fear of pain and suffering is also prevalent
 
Good job.
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Why, thank you, Psy.

Well, I'm glad you are all very nonchalant about the subject but I'm not. I guess I just fear the unknown... what happens after, what happened before, will questions be answered, will I see loved ones, etc... And yes, the fear of pain and suffering is also prevalent
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I've found that it's much easier to make yourself out to be real hardass behind the screen of an LCD monitor than it is when you're facing such a potent stimulator of raw terror as the prospect of your impending mortality, like, IRL. Though I will not be so bold as to point fingers, I recommend that you take the strapping words of fearless gusto on display within this thread with a hefty grain of salt. It is my sincere belief that 99.9% of mentally healthy people on this planet are terribly afraid of their prospective demise at the time that it eventually arrives (assuming that all necessary contingencies for said fear are in order, e.g. consciousness), all in spite of the many abstract rationalizations that a handful of these people claim to abide. Though I don't particularly relish images such as these, at the end of the day, whether they're staring down the barrel of a gun or are told by a doctor that there is nothing more to be done, most people are more likely to cry and/or promptly defecate into their undergarments than they are to reply with a steely Bruce Willis mug and reply, "See if I give a shit - life is a death sentence anyway, so do your worst," despite their quaint illusions to the contrary. I'm willing to concede that this impression of mine is derived solely from unfounded personal conjecture and experience, but I've honestly never been given a good reason to suspect that people's various mental gymnastics, whether religious or philosophical or whatever, contributed in any sizable way to the eventual acceptance of their fate (or lack thereof). Of the few people whom I have had the unique displeasure of watching die, it was clear to me that rather than their ideologies or personal philosophies, it was their personalities that did (or did not) do the trick in the end.

All this being said, I think that your attitude is a sensible one, but I feel the need to restate my original question in new terms: Putting the problem the way you did in the quote above, what makes you believe, nay, what allows you to even entertain the notion that anything resembling a coherent answer to questions such as have been pondered by men (and, in fairness, a few women) of genius-level intellect for the past few millennia will simply fall into your lap while under the influence of a psychoactive drug? I'm not trying to be argumentative, nor am I knocking psychedelics - but I do have to wonder exactly what exotic thought processes sustain those with similar ideas re. spirituality and drug use.
 
I think psychedelics can give you a preview of the death experience, but I don't think anyone necessarily ever conquers the fear of death but perhaps just comes to terms with it. It is programmed in all animal life to be afraid of death, without this there would be a greater propensity for premature termination of life. I do believe that some people can remain totally at peace during the experience, but they are the small handful of people who've done the real inner work.. something which psychedelics can't really do for you. Meditation is part of the inner work, but not the only part.
 
-=SS=- wrote, "but I don't think anyone necessarily ever conquers the fear of death but perhaps just comes to terms with it."

This ^ I'd like to come to terms with it, I guess. That is a better way of putting it. I just wanted to know if meditation or psychs were a better path for me... but I guess only I can know that. Just wanted various input of personal experiences :)
 
Personally I think just contemplating death is the better way of coming to terms with it, by being introspective about yourself and what "you" really are.. you know, in relation to life, to Earth, etc. Psychedelics can definitely give you a taste of the death experience/the feeling that this is it im going to die and never come back, and it can be quite scary (and just in general).. but I still think you can reach an understanding without blowing your head open with substances, and that it's likely to be more successfully integrated into your being too.
 
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