Fate & The Less Fortunate

[Rated E]

So I've gone through varying spiritual perspectives in my lifetime...

* As a kid: I assumed there was an omnipresent God a la Christianity
* Later on: Still believed in a God. That I prayed to when I wanted help. Or that I blamed for my problems. But I didn't believe in an arbitrary set of morals set out like a set of laws a la organised religion.
* Later still: I took on the perspective and belief of athiesm.

However, recently, events that have happened to me and my persepctive led me to take on a sort of spiritual view of the world. I felt that there was such a thing as fate, and that the universe will look after me and have it's way if I just surrender myself to it, and act as a good person.

HOWEVER, after retaining this view for a short while, it occurred to me that I can't really hold this view while so many people in the world are suffering. I felt a bit self-centred for thinking that fate helped me find my friends in a crowd at a festival, or that fate helped me find a job. If fate's helping me in my little struggles, why are there people in the world who are born suffering, suffer for a while, then die suffering?
Seems a bit stupid and selfish to assume that there's any kind of order or spiritual force in the world.

 

[lostNfound]

I felt that there was such a thing as fate, and that the universe will look after me and have it's way if I just surrender myself to it, and act as a good person.

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why are there people in the world who are born suffering, suffer for a while, then die suffering?

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Seems a bit stupid and selfish to assume that there's any kind of order or spiritual force in the world.

Social conditioning can lead toward the idea of the universe looking after you in karmic sense if you are a 'good person'. Whatever that is?

People are born into circumstances not of their own control. It is once we enter this world or should I say once we are born that we can forge our own path.
I believe in a synchronicity of sorts but not exactly fate.
Our destinies and paths are own to create, if it were up to fate then what of the people that make their own way consciously choosing there own specific path in life.
You need to decide firstly whether you believe things are pre determined before birth and if not then the idea of the universe being involved doesn't work so much.

Does it really seem so stupid to think that there is anyspiritual(define?) force within this world. I believe in in the metphysics our construction. Our bodies are made of the same things of the earth. I do believe in good and bad energies in the sense that a persons bad energy can create stress and cancer where as a persons good energy can maintain a healthiness within the body.
What's not to say that these energies are not of a spiritual nature after you have defined what spirituality is?


General thread topic so not sure what you're looking for but those are my thoughts thus far.

 

[Jabberwocky]

To try and rectify the idea of a benign force with the state of much apparent meaningless suffering is usually going to be in some way unsatisfactory.

• The benign force is to weak to help everyone?
• The suffering is serving a good purpose that we can not apprehend?
• In some mysterious way people's state is just or brought on by themselves?
• A lot of the most common theodicies revolve around blaming bad stuff on freewill, the bad stuff is a necessary byproduct of freewill, this one is said over and over and the more I hear it the less sense it makes to me.
• Akin to the freewill thing is that it is human's fault that there is so much suffering. If we would respond to our call to do things more in line with beneficent providence's grand plan this suffering wouldn't be happening.

I haven't really found a satisfactory construct on this unde malum thing so I tend to ignore it. And it does often fuck with my ability to believe in or feel a benign universe.

 

[B9]

The universe is not benign it is indifferent.

 

[Rated E]

People are born into circumstances not of their own control. It is once we enter this world or should I say once we are born that we can forge our own path.

Our destinies and paths are own to create, if it were up to fate then what of the people that make their own way consciously choosing there own specific path in life.

The fate that I believed in did not involve set destinies or set paths per say. It was more an idea that, if I relax and follow my gut instinct when making decisions, then the universe will look after me in terms of the opportunities that then present themselves. I sometimes have problems with indecisiveness (and deliberating over decisions). So this belief in "going with your gut" was probably my response to this. The "universe looking after you" is probably a safe-guard to the anxiety that I might have experienced in actually deciding to "go with my gut".

If that makes sense.

Does it really seem so stupid to think that there is anyspiritual(define?) force within this world. I believe in in the metphysics our construction. Our bodies are made of the same things of the earth.

I wasn't necessarily defining spirituality as 'good energy' (and so bad things happening = no spirituality). I think the claim I was making was more like, how could karma be the case when some people have it so bad. Then I became angered by the idea of any kind of omnipresence in the universe, and found it more comfortable to retain my atheistic belief. If I figure out how to make that sound more intelligent, I'll let you know.

I do believe in good and bad energies in the sense that a persons bad energy can create stress and cancer where as a persons good energy can maintain a healthiness within the body.
What's not to say that these energies are not of a spiritual nature after you have defined what spirituality is?

I can conceive of the negative energies causing disease and the positive energies causing well being without reference to spirituality.

It seems some people were never even given a chance, and some situations are so bad. Situations and circumstances make good and bad so relative, that it would probably be hard, even for a universe, to judge whether a person is good or bad. I guess in summing up, I can't believe in karma.

 

[bwanajzj]

I guess everyone needs someone to blame when things aren't going right, and someone to thank for making sure things don't go wrong. And relying on a God or the Universe for that are two ways of going about it. That way, when things are going good, you can tell yourself you deserve it, and when things are going bad, you can justify blaming yourself based on some arbitrary universal balance account. Pay your due, and take your fee.

If we don't allow ourselves to attribute a meaning to our life from a deep rooted knowledge of good and bad, then everything becomes pointless. And pointlessness is a big black void that every one would prefer to avoid. Fate is a rescue net, that catches us before we fall into the void, and the less fortunate are those that had to pay the rescue men for their service. Those that are loving, tend to get by for free, and those that are hateful, tend to fumble with a lesser fortune.

Some people cannot understand why they are more hateful, and thus need to feel the security of getting what they deserve by justifying their actions and the consequences, and those that love more, find themselves thinking they are not good enough for love, and need a reason to give in and take the gift they are given.

There is a cause-and-consequence explanation for everything that happens, but understanding it is not always easy, so we may rely on fate if we choose, for an easy answer in times of need. But I think there is a much bigger picture, that we will never comprehend, so in times of spiritual doubt or crisis, one should merely flow into the surroundings and not question their being, but simply make the most of the surroundings out of your best will, or your gut, if you will.

Know that whether you are dead or alive, everything will still keep moving on, so instead of asking questions to what you are given, or what is taken from you, then make the most of what you have. Because whether it be fate or not, it's what you are and it's what you've got, and as you are now will not last forever.

So, this in no way finalizes the topic, basically what I've said is fate is an easy-out, and the less questions you ask, the better off you are. But then why is it, the more I know, the more wonderful and mysterious this Universe becomes?! I think it's impossible to classify my faith, but I have faith in something... I mean, all that we as humans can do, it's pretty fucking amazing! It's not come out of nothing. There must be something other than mere survival that drives men and women alike to do the crazy and wonderful things they do. I refuse to let it be something as simple as fate! And with all the shit that happens in the world, like war and poverty... you can't tell me that someone had it out for these people. Some people are in some nasty shit here and there, and once again I refuse to let fate be the answer. Because ideally, fate is fair, and the stuff that goes on in this world is far from fair!

And the whole talk about genetic predisposition and cultural inheritance, I'll save that one for late...

 

[bwanajzj]

The universe is not benign it is indifferent.

It's the indifference that gets me! I understand WHY the universe would be indifferent, and I like to use principles of physics and chemistry to justify this, but still I don't REALLY understand WHY, which leaves me in a trance of wonder, and this must be WHY the universe is indifferent, so that I may experience this trance of WONDER.

Thus, I might vouch for benign...

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

If fate's helping me in my little struggles, why are there people in the world who are born suffering, suffer for a while, then die suffering?

The Buddha's Four Noble Truths is the best and most concise response I've seen thusfar to the Problem of Evil. Suffering is a brute fact of life and individuated existence, and is mostly a product failing to realize that individuation isn't real, and that we're all just a part of one great being.

Keep in mind I'm a panentheist -- all beings and events are just emanations of one unitary source. I don't claim to know the Prime Mover and his/her/its plan, but I'd bet that any divine plan that exists does not draw analogy to human ideas of fairness or protection. In practical terms, what's good for the great oneness may involve great suffering on the part of some of its constituent parts.

I'll make only one general supposition when it comes to fate and destiny: It could very well be be that my purpose in life is to help other sentient beings -- perhaps specific ones -- suffer less. Such could be the case for you too, or any of us.

So as for the less fortunate, I don't relate to those who give up on being compassionate because they'll never make a dent in overall suffering. All sentient beings contain an entire world within them, and therefore to do one kind deed for just one of them is to save the world.

 

[malakaix]

It could very well be be that my purpose in life is to help other sentient beings -- perhaps specific ones -- suffer less. Such could be the case for you too, or any of us.

It's interesting that over the vast amount of time that i've put thought into 'what gives me genuine purpose?' I continue to come back to this very conclusion each and every time in different ways. As you travel down your own path of selfishness, misery and suffering to eventually rise above with an intimate understanding of the human condition, it almost feels impossible to continue with a purpose that only benefits oneself, for you are fully aware this will only lead back to suffering.

Which is why i've been in limbo for so long, i know i can't go backwards.. but i am yet to find the path forward.

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

If fate's helping me in my little struggles, why are there people in the world who are born suffering, suffer for a while, then die suffering?

You have to get out of the mindset that only good things are "good". The view of things being "good" (joy, love, etc) vs "bad" (suffering) is one that only exists within our minds. Suffering, just like ecstasy, is a feeling, an experience. We are born into this life to experience and feel. Part of the amazing beauty of life is that it also includes pain and heartbreak.

All things are part of the whole.