@ Solipsis
I'm not understanding all of the chemistry talk, but what kind of psilocybin salt would the extraction yield then?
Sorry, must have missed your question until you "followed it up" yourself
I think that the salt forms yielded from extraction is a mix, I figure it would be made up by the minerals (better said the positive ions that are typically metals such as sodium and potassium) that you would typically find if you analyse the fungal cells. But not all of them, some don't seem to combine well such as calcium which would yield an insoluble salt, if calcium is no good perhaps magnesium doesn't work either.
Like I said earlier: in 'neutral' conditions psilocybin has a net negative charge so the counterion it combines with would be positively charged. The fumarate that was suggested is an example of a negative ion.
For psilocin it is different. I mentioned earlier that it has a pKa of 8.47 which means that at an acidity level (pH) of 8.47 half of it is protonated and the other half in freebase form. If the pH is about 7 there would be a lot more of the protonated form which would be positively charged and the counterion would be negative. I am guessing that less than 10% would be freebase but I could be way off. Again the rest might be extracted as a rich mix of salts of whatever kind of negative ions are around. Citrate, chloride you name it.
I am thinking that it doesn't matter so much what kind of form (freebase or protonated) of alkaloid it dissolves preferably. Because if dry mushroom tissue is used there is no more equilibrium in the solution of fungal cells. Sorry I really cannot make this any less technical.
Thank you for the response, I am putting that down in my notebook it helps me understand a few other things.
The OP wasn't 100% clear on what he was trying to achieve, crystallization or similar results, or more of a tincture where the active alkaloids are suspended in Alcohol...
From personal experience I have made 10-15 different mushroom tinctures in my day, grain alcohol is illegal in my state as well, I simply substitute 151 proof liquor which is legal everywhere in the USA.
I mix the alcohol with the dry cubensis in a mason jar, tape in black duct tape put in the freezer shake twice a day for 4 days , untape, strain, then evaporate as much excess alcohol as possible. this turns a 1/4 ounce dry into 1/2 shot glass full of tincture, I pour 1/4 ounce by volume in a glass of red wine and drink so this is equivalent to 3.5g dried and all I can say is this is one of the most incredible trips, it hits within 5 minutes and last a shorter duration, more similar to DMT, I believe this is the safest way to extract all alkaloids correctly and would work better with fresh mushrooms because some of the psilocin and psilocybin content is lost during drying.
I would be skeptical if going for crystallization could achieve these " perfect " effects. I feel like something will be lost along the way unless done by a chemist. However I could be wrong.
I appreciate the info Solipsis
You are certainly entitled to your beliefs just like I am entitled to mine.
The claim was not really that crystallisation yields perfect
effects but a product superior for storage. Whether it is better to have an impure extract containing weird-ass secondary alkaloids or to have a pure extract containing virtually nothing besides psilocybin and psilocin is up for debate. We simply don't know. It could be that the only thing other alkaloids do is potentiate psilocin and psilocybin by serving as substrates for MAO - sacrificing themselves so that less primary alkaloids are metabolized.
I guess your experience counts for something, but the value is limited if you have no experience with methanolic extractions as well. The researcher Gartz did compare them and found that methanol was best for alkaloid extraction. I don't know how far he went comparing how effective it is for secondary alkaloids such as baeocystin. But I think that alkaloid makeup was determined using that solvent, if the solvent would be selective only for psilocin / psilocybin that would have certainly skewed the results.
Honestly I don't believe it, because things like baeocystin are TOO similar to psilocybin.
It is very easy to ruin a project using IPA or Methanol if you are not experienced with alkaloid extracts.
Why? The procedure is not really *that* different. You can extract with methanol, evaporate the methanol and then add vodka or everclear or something like that.
That you found your projects a success is not an argument that it cannot be improved.
I see, well I believe it is very complicated to convert plain mushrooms to a Fumarate or HCL Salt, I don't think Just Methanol or IPA could accomplish that possibly A/B?
Solipsis? Now im curious also what kind of salts could come from an A/B mushroom extraction, someone has had to try it.
I would guess most simple ethyl, IPA or Methanol Alkaloid extracts just yield a alkaloid powder not defined as a Fumarate, HCL or free base. So what would they be defined as? Visually I believe they resemble Fumarate salts but wouldn't be considered a Fumarate. Thats just my guess.
Clarification from the pros?
I would be curious to know what kind of salt is pictured in this tek:
http://www.fanaticus.com/mycoalki.htm
What is the big deal with salt forms? Is it that fumarate salts are more stable? If so, yes it would take an A/B extraction a la DMT. First you freebase the alkaloids, then you salt with fumaric acid.
What salts can come from a workup like that? It depends on what acid you use in the process. Fumaric acid yields the fumarate, citric acid the citrate, vinegar the acetate, etc.
The kind of salt depicted there could be the mix I was talking about. It depends on why it crystallized / what procedure was used. Assuming that no A/B extraction was done it would be a mix of naturally occuring forms.
I'd like to be peer reviewed by ADD type folks.
