Experiences with psychadelic amphetamines while bipolar?

[St3ve]

What does TLDR stand for?

Too long, didn't read.

As for the OPs questions. It's hard to say whether or not psychedelics (of any kind) will trigger a manic outburst in a bipolar person. I've seen a friend diagnosed with bipolar (and ADHD) gobble up adderall, MDMA, ketamine whilst drinking excessively. And be completely "fine" in the sense of, they were not any more fucked up than a "normal" person would be after a cocktail like that. Then again, I have read stories of people purposefully drinking excessive amounts of caffeine and staying up all night in order to trigger manic episodes.

Please be more precise in your use of the term amphetamines. For you, it may be clear you mean the unsubstituted amphetamine backbone and its related stimulant cousins, but this might not be the case for less informed users. An amphetamine has to function as an amphetamine, by definition.

It's not true though that DOx only act through serotonin. At least DOM, DOET, DOB and DOI also work on adrenergic receptors. Both DOB and DOI also activate dopamine receptors, although weakly (and also relatively more weakly compared to LSD). Since DOC also has a halogen at the 4-position, it's not that far fetched to assume at least weak activity on dopamine receptors. See Ray [2010].

As for the term "psychedelic amphetamine" I'm kind of with AA357 on this one. Quite often you'll read posts on here along the lines of "Be careful with DOX, it's very stimulating because of the amphetamine part". Which to me sounds they think of it as something as a molecule that has two sides, one stimulant and one psychedelic. While in reality, pharmacologically speaking at least, it really does not behave like d/l-amphetamine at ALL and acts exactly purely as a classical psychedelic.

Amphetamine is a term used by chemists to describe compounds that share a certain structural motive (the amphetamine backbone), this does not mean, by definition, that they have to act in similar ways on the body and mind. Some of the amphetamine analogues behave very similarly in terms of pharmacological activity like methamphetamine and 2/3/4-F(M)A. DOx compounds however, do not.

In that paper you linked you can see that DOC has very appreciable affinity for 5HT2B, 2A and 2C (in that order). The numbers on the left are from a logarithmical scale, meaning that dropping down from 4 to 3 is not a potency loss of 25% but a factor of 10. The affinity DOC has for the adrenergic B2 receptor is just above 2 from what I can see so it is just under 100 times less selective for this than the 5TH2B receptor. It has no appreciable affinity for either DAT or NET, which means it does not act like d/l-amp. Also, keep in mind that this is an in vitro screen and does not factor in metabolism, distrubution, blood brain barrier crossing, etc. Results shown here might not be a close representation of how a lot of these compounds actually work in the body.

 

[Tranced]

FFS, why does every other fucking post I type on here get misinterpreted??? I can't believe I'm having to explain myself yet again. Am I really that incoherent???
Go read my post again. I never said that they weren't amphetamines or that that the term wasn't correct:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wrong
^^^When I said it 'sounds wrong' I meant that the prospect of taking such a chemical is very daunting for many people. There is nothing factually wrong with the term 'psychedelic amphetamine' and I don't have a problem with it... it's just a scary idea. I always imagined such a drug would make me feel tweaked out of my mind and tripping at the same time. This wasn't the case. Yes it's a chemically an amphetamine but it's nowhere near as stimulating as straight amphetamine and its pharmacology is totally different (amphetamine is a powerful DA/NE releaser whereas DOx work as serotonin agonists and have no significant effect on monoamine release or reuptake).

I get you.

I've noticed that people on bluelight can completely misinterpret posts, and it can be very annoying. If you ask me it reflects an innate desire to correct, above an innate desire to understand (I speak generally here, not necessarily to immad).

That said, are you British? I am, and 'plain wrong' sounds to me like a decidedly British thing to say. It will mean a completely different thing across the pond - in whichever direction that may be. It sounds to me like immad is just generally unaware of the phrase, or missed it on this occasion.

I've found myself being so irritated at bluelight over the years, so take the advice from me. Play your cards right and keep chilled, and you will realise that you can be equally as patronising without ever getting in any kind of trouble, or causing threads to derail. It's fucking great.

I agree with Xorkoth though; people snapping can really put people off posting on a forum. I've admittedly played my part in this over the years, and I've also seen the demise of many a forum which I formerly loved. It's good to see that psychedelic drugs is a fairly civilised place.


OP: I'm sorry I can't give you more of a concrete answer, but I have a bipolar friend who takes psychedelics around about once a year. Every single time (year) this triggers a bipolar episode. Cannabis, ketamine, LSD, mushrooms, 2c-b - all have been triggers.

To me it always seems like the psychological effects are the trigger, rather than the physiological effects. Anything which further predisposes you to manic bouts of thinking is going to lead your thoughts to that same old place, in my opinion.

Obviously some people differ, but this is my experience. DOC is so long lasting that I'd personally stay well clear.

 

[sailor bugg]

I can help with your question, as I have bi-polar and ADD and have done DOB on a few occasions. As for my experience with taking it, it stimulated me, lifted my mood to a state of contentment and mild euphoria, produced minor visuals (mostly it just enhanced colours and made things more vivid, it was really tame visually), enhanced audio stimuli (I was at a club and the house music they were playing sounded way better than it would have if I was sober) and lasted about 15 hours.

It didn't really affect my bi-polar at all, it didn't make me manic, there was no depression post trip and my mood was pretty stable throughout the entire experience. As for it affecting my ADD, it did make me much more focused and confident, as I said I was clubbing and while I was there I found a girl that looked cute and I was able to chat her up and even went back to her place (usually I'm pretty shy).

I should mention that I was on a few medications at this time, most notable was 1500mg epival daily.

 

[Tranced]

I can help with your question, as I have bi-polar and ADD and have done DOB on a few occasions. As for my experience with taking it, it stimulated me, lifted my mood to a state of contentment and mild euphoria, produced minor visuals (mostly it just enhanced colours and made things more vivid, it was really tame visually), enhanced audio stimuli (I was at a club and the house music they were playing sounded way better than it would have if I was sober) and lasted about 15 hours.

It didn't really affect my bi-polar at all, it didn't make me manic, there was no depression post trip and my mood was pretty stable throughout the entire experience. As for it affecting my ADD, it did make me much more focused and confident, as I said I was clubbing and while I was there I found a girl that looked cute and I was able to chat her up and even went back to her place (usually I'm pretty shy).

I should mention that I was on a few medications at this time, most notable was 1500mg epival daily.

Out of interest and for the OP, how do other psychedelics effect your bipolar?

 

[sailor bugg]

Out of interest and for the OP, how do other psychedelics effect your bipolar?

I'm not just bi-polar, I have schitzoaffective disorder, major depression, GAD and ADD. I'm on medication for these diagnosis' (epival 2000mg, invega 6mg, ritalin 60mg, wellbutrin 300mg). As for how my condition affects tripping, for me it really doesn't change my mindset when I do a psychedelic. I feel totally the same wether I'm on something like LSD or if I'm sober. I've pushed the limits of psychedelic use too, I've done 35 hits of LSD once and 100mg oral 2CE and was mentally in control the whole time on both occasions. Me and my ex used to trip on LSD 2-3 times a week for 2 and a half months when we were going through our "psychedelic phase." She's the same way as me when it comes to these chemicals. Heh her first time doing a psychedelic was LSD and she took 12 hits and I took 16 heh fun times.

 

[Drew.]

I am BP II and adhd. Tripping effects me differently, but it has not been entirely detrimental. I am cautious about admitting my diagnoses, but I feel it is appropriate for this post. Tripping has allowed me a brief escape from the symptoms that I deal with on a daily basis. Sometimes it is very dark and sometimes it gives me a glimpse into positive things in my life. Not much different from everybody else I suppose. It can be very dark, but also very enlightening. I wouldn't change the way that see things for anything, despite not fitting a certain mold. I am not one that can't deal with things that come up with psychedelics. I like to approach things head on. I would say that psychedelics are the least harmful of all the substances that I have done, but that's not to say there are not implicit dangers. I don't really understand the whole concept of normalcy and people that only experience 'good trips'. Bad trips happen, especially if you are bipolar. But it doesn't always have to be negative, you can grow from your experiences. Especially when dealing with mental illness, there may be differences in perception but they should be embraced as this is the true message of psychedelia. Proceed with caution, but don't be a psychedelic police, we like to get high too.

This is what the user was professionally diagnosed with - BP 2 and minor ADD

 

[Zalo]

I haven't read the other posts but psychedelic amphetamines and bipolar sounds like something that would trigger full blown mania. Amphetamines can trigger manic episodes and precipitate psychosis in those without mental health issues.

I'd imagine that you'd be more likely to experience mania under the influence of psychedelic amphetamines, so be careful with your dosages. I'm not saying that you'll for sure experience mania but it's more likely that you will relative to a person without mental disorders.

 

[Xorkoth]

Well as has been mentioned in this thread, the psychedelic amphetamines are amphetamine in structure, but in pharmacological action they do not act anything like amphetamine. For example they have no affinity for dopamine receptors, just serotonin mainly. The long duration is perhaps a concern.

 

[Rachella666]

Thanks for asking this Drew, im bipolar also and was wondering about the use of lsd with bp xxx

 

[treezy z]

i have schizoaffective (bipolar with psychosis) and DOC made me feel like dog-shit. i usually enjoy psychedelics.

 

[al-laddin]

I would be much more worried about LSD than anything else. LSD has powerful dopaminergic activity, which makes it a lot different to most psychedelics. It's a crazy powerful stimulant. I'm not even manic or bipolar but strong doses of acid trigger full-blown mania in me. Racing thoughts, flight of ideas, can't concentrate, feeling godlike, easily angered... the whole package. If you have bipolar then it might trigger a manic episode.

The term 'psychedelic amphetamine' sounds pretty daunting and even just plain wrong, but it's not what you'd expect. DOx drugs are very different to regular amphetamine in their effects (AFAIK they have no significant effect on monoamine levels). IME DOM is only slightly stimulating and similar in ways to 2C-E.

Oh yeah, and stay the fuck away from psychedelics if you're taking lithium. I know LSD + lithium is a recipe for seizures/death.

Hmmmm

SLIGHTLY off topic but not really because my question maybe result in a reasonable alternative for someone who could take a less risky substance in triggering psychological disorders. Im wondering, Ive noticed that with LSD the dopaminergic activity seems to come on in the latter portion of the experience...interestingly Nichols confirms this in a quite recent lecture that I saw. He talks about how some people find the latter portion of an acid trip uncomfortable, unsettling and overstimulating and thats its do to the dopaminergic activity. I wonder if this effect is limted to LSD. My experiments with AL-LAD proved to subjectively be a more uplifting and slightly different in character LSD...however the one major objective difference that every one can agree on is the shorter duration....but not JUST simply a shorter duration....almost as if the latter portion of the acid trip LOPPED off....like the dopaminergic portion (which I dont really like) removed. Anyone know if AL-LAD does NOT effect these receptors? AL-LAD may be a less harmful choice over LSD/DOx for those with bipolar. Just a thought

 

[al-laddin]

Well as has been mentioned in this thread, the psychedelic amphetamines are amphetamine in structure, but in pharmacological action they do not act anything like amphetamine. For example they have no affinity for dopamine receptors, just serotonin mainly. The long duration is perhaps a concern.

Sorry about the double post I had trouble editing my original... Well, Dox being amphetamines....does that make them stimulants technically? Do they speed up the CNS? heart rate/BP etc more than other psychedelics?

 

[Xorkoth]

They are more stimulating than many psychedelics, and some of them more than others (DOI is known to be quite stimulating, then again so is 2C-I). I find DOC to be about as stimulating as LSD, if you take a large dose it can even be quite sedating for the first half.

 

[al-laddin]

Ok but your speaking from a subjective point of view, correct? I mean for harm reduction purposes, someone with a bad heart , for example should stay away from them dox? I mean sometimes I may feel stimulated by a substance but my vitals would be normal or near normal...

 

[al-laddin]

I would be much more worried about LSD than anything else. LSD has powerful dopaminergic activity, which makes it a lot different to most psychedelics. It's a crazy powerful stimulant. I'm not even manic or bipolar but strong doses of acid trigger full-blown mania in me. Racing thoughts, flight of ideas, can't concentrate, feeling godlike, easily angered... the whole package. If you have bipolar then it might trigger a manic episode.

The term 'psychedelic amphetamine' sounds pretty daunting and even just plain wrong, but it's not what you'd expect. DOx drugs are very different to regular amphetamine in their effects (AFAIK they have no significant effect on monoamine levels). IME DOM is only slightly stimulating and similar in ways to 2C-E.

Oh yeah, and stay the fuck away from psychedelics if you're taking lithium. I know LSD + lithium is a recipe for seizures/death.

Hmmmm

SLIGHTLY off topic but not really because my question maybe result in a reasonable alternative for someone who could take a less risky substance in triggering psychological disorders. Im wondering, Ive noticed that with LSD the dopaminergic activity seems to come on in the latter portion of the experience...interestingly Nichols confirms this in a quite recent lecture that I saw. He talks about how some people find the latter portion of an acid trip uncomfortable, unsettling and overstimulating and thats its do to the dopaminergic activity. I wonder if this effect is limted to LSD. My experiments with AL-LAD proved to subjectively be a more uplifting and slightly different in character LSD...however the one major objective difference that every one can agree on is the shorter duration....but not JUST simply a shorter duration....almost as if the latter portion of the acid trip LOPPED off....like the dopaminergic portion (which I dont really like) removed. Anyone know if AL-LAD does NOT effect these receptors? AL-LAD may be a less harmful choice over LSD/DOx for those with bipolar. Just a thought

 

[Drew.]

Thanks for asking this Drew, im bipolar also and was wondering about the use of lsd with bp xxx

Not a problem, it seems the topic keeps veering elsewhere; but then again this entire conversion is subjective to the individual users interaction with a drugand their illnesses. So I think there's only so much people can answer to here.
Again he has bp2 and ADD. The trigger would much depend on the individual, and the severity of the condition of the individual.

Hmmmm

SLIGHTLY off topic but not really because my question maybe result in a reasonable alternative for someone who could take a less risky substance in triggering psychological disorders. Im wondering, Ive noticed that with LSD the dopaminergic activity seems to come on in the latter portion of the experience...interestingly Nichols confirms this in a quite recent lecture that I saw. He talks about how some people find the latter portion of an acid trip uncomfortable, unsettling and overstimulating and thats its do to the dopaminergic activity. I wonder if this effect is limted to LSD. My experiments with AL-LAD proved to subjectively be a more uplifting and slightly different in character LSD...however the one major objective difference that every one can agree on is the shorter duration....but not JUST simply a shorter duration....almost as if the latter portion of the acid trip LOPPED off....like the dopaminergic portion (which I dont really like) removed. Anyone know if AL-LAD does NOT effect these receptors? AL-LAD may be a less harmful choice over LSD/DOx for those with bipolar. Just a thought

AL-LAD is nearly impossible to obtain anywhere these days, otherwise this could be absolutely viable. Other than the fact that he maybe shouldn't be trying any of them to begin with because of the potential issues

 

[JBrandon]

I use this shit as a pre-workout supplement sometimes.

8) Where's the "jerking off" hand-motion emoji?

...DOM, DOET, DOB and DOI also work on adrenergic receptors. Both DOB and DOI also activate dopamine receptors, although weakly (and also relatively more weakly compared to LSD). Since DOC also has a halogen at the 4-position, it's not that far fetched to assume at least weak activity on dopamine receptors.

You need to be more clear with your terminology here. What does "work on", "activate", and "weak activity" actually mean? What receptors, precisely, are you talking about?

There's a world of difference between something that is simply agonizing a D1/D2 receptor and something that is inhibiting re-uptake or triggering release. You seem to be making a case that the DOx drugs function in an at least *slightly* similar way to dexamp. Yes, there is some extremely weak direct DA agonism by dexamp, but that's not it's primary MOA. The monoamine release that is the signature of dexamp is nowhere to be seen with the DOx-series.

One thing I hate is repeatedly having to explain simple things. I have no patience [because I'm an asshole].

You make some excellent and informative points in your posts but surely you can recognize that you come off as a massive prick?

The ego you have on display is so childish. Bluelight is a place for people from the entire spectrum of the knowledge-base. For as much as you clearly think you know everything, there are users here that could look at your posts with the same derision that you've displayed, except they're mature enough and emotionally stable enough not to do so.

First of all, what do you mean by "mild bipolar/ADD"?? I'd understand if you put mild bipolar and ADD, but "mild bipolar/ADD?? They're not interchangeable tems at all, they're totally distinct conditions that aren't easily mistaken. It sounds to me like your "friend" is yet another one jumping on the "lol im bipolar!!!11 sometimes im happy and sometimes im sad, im a special unique bipolar snowflake and not just a normal person with emotions" bandwagon that seems to be becoming increasingly prevalent amongst adolescents.

...there are NO drugs that we can take that won't have consequences that wouldn't be there for someone without bipolar disorder. I would strongly caution someone with bipolar disorder to even think long and hard about smoking weed or having a drink, because even that can be enough to trigger a depression or mania in us, and even when substances don't send us into a full blown episode they can cause severe but sub-clinical disruption in our moods and energy levels for days and even weeks after a single time (this is something I've experienced with every drug I've ever taken).

This is the best post in the entire thread.

It also tangentially touches on a point I feel needs to be made:

A "manic episode" while intoxicated with a drug IS NOT A TRUE MANIC EPISODE in the classic bipolar disorder manner that most people are referring to! I see people in this thread saying things about people being "manic" during the come-up on a psychedelic. Well, sure - that can and will happen with "neurotypical" people as well. The concern for a truly bipolar individual is that the drug will act as the catalyst for a longer-term manic period, lasting days, weeks, or months. I can go plug three or four random things out of my collection right now and go into a manic or psychotic episode for 8 hours if I pick the right drugs and the right dosages. That is a very different phenomenon than the bipolar individual who takes something and then is up for a week with all manner of grandiose and delusional thinking persisting long after the drug has worn off.

 

[JBrandon]

I just find it odd that he smokes green on near daily basis; and alcohol he drinks often too.

Nothing odd about that at all. He's probably self-medicating.

 

[AA357]

Sorry about the double post I had trouble editing my original... Well, Dox being amphetamines....does that make them stimulants technically? Do they speed up the CNS? heart rate/BP etc more than other psychedelics?

Remember that they are only amphetamines structurally. The fact that they happen to be stimulating is a co-incidence. 2C-I is reported to be very stimulating: from the reports I've read people are saying it feels more stimulating than its amphetamine counterpart (DOI).

I will give you an analogy: Amphetamine is a weaker stimulant than methamphetamine. So why is it that MDA is more stimulating than MDMA?

Hmmmm

SLIGHTLY off topic but not really because my question maybe result in a reasonable alternative for someone who could take a less risky substance in triggering psychological disorders. Im wondering, Ive noticed that with LSD the dopaminergic activity seems to come on in the latter portion of the experience...interestingly Nichols confirms this in a quite recent lecture that I saw. He talks about how some people find the latter portion of an acid trip uncomfortable, unsettling and overstimulating and thats its do to the dopaminergic activity. I wonder if this effect is limted to LSD. My experiments with AL-LAD proved to subjectively be a more uplifting and slightly different in character LSD...however the one major objective difference that every one can agree on is the shorter duration....but not JUST simply a shorter duration....almost as if the latter portion of the acid trip LOPPED off....like the dopaminergic portion (which I dont really like) removed. Anyone know if AL-LAD does NOT effect these receptors? AL-LAD may be a less harmful choice over LSD/DOx for those with bipolar. Just a thought

I believe LSD's dopaminergic activity has something to do with the fact that it's an ergoline... these tend to be powerful D2 agonists. Being an LSD analog I wouldn't be surprised if AL-LAD also works on dopamine receptors.