Experience with ketamine therapy for depression

[PDDChronic]

Perpetual: Indeed. Although the first time you take it you might want a slightly bigger dose, at a higher rate. Got to give your brain a chance to heal.

 

[perpetualdawn]

How well understood is the mechanism by which Ketamine helps a depressed brain?
What would you speculate the effects of the kind of regime described by PDDChronic, or other anti-depressant Ketamine regimes, would have on a healthy brain? (Sub-psychedelic, infrequent doses, chronic)
I ask this not because I want to try, I'm pretty happy and mentally healthy and if it ain't broke dont fix it, but more as a thought experiment.

 

[PDDChronic]

I'm really hoping I don't end up with bladder problems :S That would suck. I know that this is what Ketamine abuse leads to, but for these doses that Foreigner clued us up to in this thread? Who knows? I remember reading a study that was 30mg twice a week. But all of these studies are for a limited amount of time.

There are people that claim that it might have a Nootropic effect -- again, Foreigner (*a million salutes to you*) might have mentioned this if you look up.

I guess the fact that it prevents neuronal atrophy / and promotes Neurogenesis might lead you to believe you might get smarter, but smarts has more to do with building the right networks up, I'm thinking. Training, etc. There is no drug that will make you smarter. Smart drugs are a misnomer. I don't think neurogenesis equates to smarts. There is plenty of evidence to support training, but the nootropic field is pretty murky.

Keep in mind: I really have no idea what I'm talking about just because i can use Google scholar!

Edit: An article just popped up on IFLS talking about just this (stress, neuron damage, ketamine, depression): http://www.iflscience.com/brain/study-reveals-new-approach-blocking-neuronal-damage-stress

 

[pmoseman]

Well I am depressed and lots of people are. The best way to overcome depression is to be less self centered. You can become too clingy and depend on people accepting you to make you feel happy.

You have to learn to accept yourself. Then live for something other than yourself. I am not really out of my depression yet, so who am I to give advice in this area? but I see people who are happy and realize they tend to be more spontaneous.

They seem more concerned with things outside of themselves. They may care how others perceive them, not to be confused with being self centered. There is a thin difference, like a single coat of paint over shit concrete, to make it beautiful, or a thin layer of oil to make parts work past one another. It might seem superficial to people like us who look for truth and obviously everyone had their moments, but perhaps we miss part of the truth by not accepting it in all forms.

We may need just a little white lie, to make everything seem alright, then accept it as you accept any other part of yourself.

 

[Nicholai]

This is a fascinating thread. Thank you, Foreigner, for documenting this, and building on Jamyshd's work. I've been considering this therapy for a while, but have yet to explore it due to a number of different factors.

I don't feel that I could self-administer such a regime, however. Years ago, as a club kid, I was very, very fond of ketamine. It is certainly effective for disrupting a depressive state, however I do not trust myself to not abuse it.

 

[pmoseman]

http://crisis.webit.me/ketamine-for-depression
"Remember that so far, using ketamine for depression is not indicated....
Remission rates at 2, 4, and 6 weeks were 25%, 40%, and 65%, respectively, in the sarcosine group, vs 0%, 0%, and 5% in the citalopram group. 'Sarcosine was well tolerated without significant side effects,' they write...
'... Also, both potentially attenuate signaling through NMDA receptors, ketamine with single doses and sarcosine with long-term administration, by evoking an adaptive downregulation of NMDA receptors,' said Dr. Krystal."

 

[pmoseman]

....

Ketamine is a short term solution. A drug like sarcosine has theoretically long term benefits for those who need it. It is practically non-toxic and has no known side effects yet. Overall, it looks promising.

 

[Solipsis]

Pmoseman started off trying to explain something painting us an illustrative picture, but halfway through decided to turn it into a ridiculous screenplay? Did I get that right?
Whatever it is, it's something.

Apart from that, I actually think he has a point that ketamine and other dissociatives are a short-term solution. Tolerance makes it less than ideal for chronic use and addiction/dependence can lurk.. but some say it technically can be done with a regimen. Fortunately there isn't a a severe withdrawal syndrome with ketamine, especially from therapeutic levels.

Using ketamine seems more like a symptom treatment to me, but no doubt it can apparently be effective on short-term, yielding pretty much immediate benefit.

 

[vortech]

Apart from that, I actually think he has a point that ketamine and other dissociatives are a short-term solution. Tolerance makes it less than ideal for chronic use and addiction/dependence can lurk.. but some say it technically can be done with a regimen. Fortunately there isn't a a severe withdrawal syndrome with ketamine, especially from therapeutic levels.

Using ketamine seems more like a symptom treatment to me, but no doubt it can apparently be effective on short-term, yielding pretty much immediate benefit.

I am exploring the 'regimen' aspect and am working towards refining my own ideal regimen, but I am using MXE instead of ketamine because of the increased duration/potency and some additional benefits over ketamine. I like to think of it as a 'dance' of sorts, in that it is a constant process of maintaining a balance when using to maximize benefits while avoiding tolerance and negative side-effects.

 

[Solipsis]

Chronic depression or a dysthemic disorder are certainly different from a bout of sadness, sure. And pmoseman, whatever his intentions writing that, can easily be so wrong about you. If so, try not to take it personally or too seriously I guess, or if you do maybe it can be of insight to some of us if you calmly explain the crux to us.
Pmoseman I guess you can stop trying to push your point.

Someone very dear to me, basically my best friend, suffers from the actual serious form of this ailment and indeed I see the being fucked-ness you mean. I also know he tried dissociatives but in the end felt them to be a little too tricky, or well at least to take them without appropriate supervision.

Nobody should devalue your condition PDDchronic, but I do think calling ketamine's efficacies and risks into question is fair and may very well be in your best interest.

 

[xammy]

Didn't read this thread but I want to contribute that I tried ketamine for the first time last monday. I'm not depressed in any way, but I've been extremely happy this week after the ketamine experience (which wasn't that mind blowing I was expecting)

It certainly have some strong antidepressant properties. Actually I took ketamine because I heard some bad news (nothing brutal but something that made me use drugs even when I had promised myself I would take a break).

I will certainly look into ketamine if I find myself depressed in some point in my life. Spectacular stuff.

I don't know if this is posted already but very interesting read about ketamine and depression.

http://www.stichtingopen.nl/en/home/website/ketamine-reconsidered

 

[Solipsis]

Since part of the confused and non-constructive discussion was retracted I removed a few extra posts and partials as well.

Now please let's keep it clean, clear and to the point.

 

[PDDChronic]

@vortech:

I'm interested in what you said about MXE. By duration do you mean afterglow -- or duration of the high? For Ketamine (and DXM -- when there's no tolerance ) there is a week long 'afterglow' whereby the therapeutic effect is felt the most. I understand -- with MXE -- the high is way longer. How long does the therapeutic afterglow last (how long does it keep depression at bay?)

PS: Thanks Solipsis.

 

[vortech]

@vortech:

I'm interested in what you said about MXE. By duration do you mean afterglow -- or duration of the high? For Ketamine (and DXM -- when there's no tolerance ) there is a week long 'afterglow' whereby the therapeutic effect is felt the most. I understand -- with MXE -- the high is way longer. How long does the therapeutic afterglow last (how long does it keep depression at bay?)

PS: Thanks Solipsis.

I mean both the afterglow and the duration of the high (3 hours compared 45 minutes for ketamine), and an afterglow that is qualitatively different that I would characterize as brighter and higher frequency. The afterglow appears as a sort of 'echo', so in experiences that produce higher therapeutic value, i.e. positive 'glowing' experiences that produce states such as euphoria and meditative calm- a resonance of sorts- the corresponding 'echo' of the afterglow is more pronounced.

This thread on drugs-forum addresses the subject in more detail. One thing that the poster noted of relevance:
"...according to many anecdotal reports, it appears to be much easier to remember, articulate, and learn from the experience. Also, like ketamine, the antidepressant afterglow from MXE is quite substantial for many people, and can last for up to a week.

Read more: http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=196705#ixzz31XDSPBgm"

It is this characterization of a 'brighter, higher frequency' afterglow that allows the user to more easily "remember, articulate, and learn from the experience".

Anecdotal evidence hints that MXE be a more optimal candidate for stronger and longer-lasting synaptic growth and restructuring in the brain.

 

[I B Profane]

First off, thank you Foreigner for starting this thread! There's a lot of good stuff in here. I'll chime in with my own anecdotal experiences.

Whenever I get a K connect, it doesn't tend to last very long, so I've never been able to get enough ket at one time to conduct an experiment like this. I will say tho that whenever I use ketamine, I feel FUCKING GREAT for the next few days afterwards. As others have mentioned I just feel brighter, more creative, happier, at peace, I firmly believe that it allows me to be the best human being that I can. But at the same time, I'm aware that dissociative abuse can lead to bad spots, and I personally find ketamine a bit too addicting - when I have it, I WILL take it every day. It's just so easy to get home, rail a fat ole line and get nice and snuggly in the bed with some Desert Dwellers playing in the background. It lasts so short that its easy enough to sneak into my daily schedule.

For this reason (among others) I feel like methoxetamine would be a better choice for helping combat depression, at least for me. Anecdotally (keeping in mind there's very very little research on MXE) the whole "afterglow" lasts longer than K, and for me I'd only really have time for one MXE trip per week - I simply aint got time to be chillin in an M-hole all day! But the antidepressant effects are just as pronounced if not more. I'm wondering, why do certain dissociatives have this effect but not others? Take DXM for example, it's strange but I actually tend to get fairly depressed in the days following a DXM trip (not to mention the day after is WEIRD as fuck.) I still like to dex every now and again but mxe and k are the only dissos that have had a profound antidepressant effect on me. Oh, and 3-meo-pcp too, but I took that only one time at a festival so its kind of hard to be depressed at a festival anyway lol.

But yeah, I wonder why some dissociatives (like K and MXE) have a profound antidepressant effect, while others simply don't. Interesting stuff, someone should research this %)

 

[vortech]

DXM doesn't play well for me either compared to K and MXE. I characterize the afterglow as being muddier and lower frequency. Body load too is more pronounced which hinders the therapeutic index. I am looking into the mechanisms of these results and will report my conclusions.

 

[PDDChronic]

So I've had my first top up of >5 to <10mg (approx) Ketamine (about 8 days since last re-dose).

This time I combined it with 150mg Magnesium citrate, and 100mg Magnesium orotate/mixed as per http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11323343 (starting small regarding mag dose).

"Ketamine and Mg2+ inhibit functioning of recombinantly expressed NR1/NR2A and NR1/NR2B glutamate receptors, and combinations of the compounds act in a super-additive manner. These findings may explain, in part, why combinations of ketamine and Mg2+ are more effective analgesics than either compound alone."

Shall report back when I re-dose to see if it lengthened the 'afterglow'. Although I have no basis to think it will do *anything*, it's worth a shot.

Edit: Well it's definitely added another dimension. Usually after it's worn off I have a slight edgy energy I've always assumed was a kind of shock of being back in the land of the living. Now with added Magnesium this edgy feeling has rounded out into a kind of more relaxing warmth. edit2: next day feeling chipper as fuck! Afterglow feels stronger, and calmer. I would heartily recommend supplementing with magnesium at the time of dosing.

 

[hawaii]

Hi Foreigner,
could you please give me/us an update on the long term effects of this therapy?
Are you still re-dosing Ketamine or you feel like the therapy has been fully effective?

 

[seacidal]

Has anybody here successfully used ketamine for severe treatment-resistant (aka malignant) major depression (w/o psychosis)?
BTW, I'm not referring to situational depression or even unsuccessful trials of a few anti-depressants. Rather, I'm talking about severe depression that has resisted dozens of extensive medication trials and even major treatments like ECT, rTMS, DBS, etc.
Ketamine infusion treatments are quite costly, especially over time. Any successes in that area would be appreciated.

 

[Foreigner]

Hi Foreigner,
could you please give me/us an update on the long term effects of this therapy?
Are you still re-dosing Ketamine or you feel like the therapy has been fully effective?

Sorry for the delay in answering this. I return to this thread infrequently.

I believe ketamine accomplished for me what it was supposed to do. It repaired the parts of my brain that experienced harm from repeated traumatic events so that I could function at a more cognitively normal level again.

If I were to describe my current status, I would say that I have depression due to life circumstances, but not because of neuronal shortcomings in my brain. For this reason I seldom use ketamine anymore. At some point it's no longer about chemical management, but learning to accept what is not working in life and having the valor to do some personal transformation.

Ketamine helped me immensely for what it did, but it's important to look at the whole picture. If you do the ketamine regimen and it helps you feel better, but you still find yourself feeling down after long term therapeutic use, then either it's the wrong drug or you don't need a drug at all and should instead be examining your life.