Existential depression

[Foreigner]

http://sengifted.org/archives/articles/existential-depression-in-gifted-individual

Existential depression is a depression that arises when an individual confronts certain basic issues of existence. Yalom (1980) describes four such issues (or “ultimate concerns”)–death, freedom, isolation and meaninglessness. Death is an inevitable occurrence. Freedom, in an existential sense, refers to the absence of external structure. That is, humans do not enter a world which is inherently structured. We must give the world a structure which we ourselves create. Isolation recognizes that no matter how close we become to another person, a gap always remains, and we are nonetheless alone. Meaninglessness stems from the first three. If we must die, if we construct our own world, and if each of us is ultimately alone, then what meaning does life have?

Why should such existential concerns occur disproportionately among gifted persons? Partially, it is because substantial thought and reflection must occur to even consider such notions, rather than simply focusing on superficial day-to-day aspects of life. Other more specific characteristics of gifted children are important predisposers as well.

Because gifted children are able to consider the possibilities of how things might be, they tend to be idealists. However, they are simultaneously able to see that the world is falling short of how it might be. Because they are intense, gifted children feel keenly the disappointment and frustration which occurs when ideals are not reached. Similarly, these youngsters quickly spot the inconsistencies, arbitrariness and absurdities in society and in the behaviors of those around them. Traditions are questioned or challenged. For example, why do we put such tight sex-role or age-role restrictions on people? Why do people engage in hypocritical behaviors in which they say one thing and then do another? Why do people say things they really do not mean at all? Why are so many people so unthinking and uncaring in their dealings with others? How much difference in the world can one person’s life make?

I think this article really describes the birth of philosophers, and maybe even drug users. For me, this problem goes deep. It's not situational. Even when I've been happy, I've been aware of the temporariness. As the article goes on to describe, there's no patch work that can make it better, yet there's no real way to escape it.

The article frames it as a gifted children thing, but really it can affect anyone. Once you see it, you can't unsee it. It happens at all stages of life. For me, it happened as a teenager, and I had trouble putting words to it.

With Jamshyd's death, it has made me revisit some of this stuff. I don't really have any greater over-arching commentary, solutions, or remedies. I guess maybe I created this thread as a place for people to come who understand. Maybe even talk about how we have learned to sort of deal with it? It's sadly ironic that there are a few posters whose thoughts I'd love to hear about this, but who are no longer alive. C'est la vie, I guess.

I have gone the drug route, the P&S route, the travel route... anything to distract myself or to find an answer. I've developed an inner framework for dealing with this, but there are still days where it's like, ugh.... fuck this.

Would love to hear what other people have to say about it.

 

[Ziiirp]

To be fond : What advantage do you hope to gain from "feeling the depression of the gifted" ?

I remember I've read you have some chronical pain to deal with. So have I.

Are you able to sit a meditation posture (you choose it) for 20-30 minutes on a pillow of your choice ? Perhaps we can sit together in the future and help each other to gain insights.

I believe in introspection and insights. And I believe in pain (have a serious chronic condition myself).

As long as I am able to move and sit without life threatening complaints, I rather focus on solutions, than on the indoctrinated (in my view) veil of depression. Yeah I feel depressed often. But it has nothing to do with a static state, that we cannot change.

 

[Nixiam]

I think a lot of us here have a bad case of Existential Depression. Maybe even most of us.

Mine happened in my early, early teens. Evn though I'm still considered early being 15 and all.

I started to understand the meaning and reality behind my childhood events. That's really what tipped the ice berg.

I too have chosen the drug route, and can I be honest for a second?

I don't regret it yet. I wouldn't change a single thing in my life. I don't know if I would be the same me.

The most enlightening bits of my life thus far have been in communication with all of you.

____

Anyways, I'd tend to agree with the article.

I never really find myself looking at you as a depressed human, Foreigner. You do a good job at being kind and warm and all that good stuff, but I can definitely see where that open personality stems from.

Thank you for that, even though your depressive struggles are apparent.

Not trying to kiss up or anything.

:D, be careful. You're taking Jamshyd's death hard.

 

[Ziiirp]

You (both) make me want to kick walls in with your statements about "depression".

Just buy a pillow and fucking start to sit.

And laugh about depression.

 

[swilow]

I like to think that heightened awareness of 'things' is useful and positive, but I must admit, I struggle with the path I've chosen. Or been taken down. For at least 18 months, I have been hugely discontent and getting worse and unable to really see beauty and joy and peace anymore. I feel like I've stared at existence and seen this mechanical and architectural process that I feel so seperate from. It is really hard to see much that is desirable in this reality, so pain filled and gloomy it can get. The occaisional ray of light isn't enough to keep me warm and fed anymore, and comfort and pleasure seems few and far between. I feel like I am pushing through a sort of boundary and am approaching something like minor illumination, or possibly destruction and death. I almost welcome either. Will probably get neither though.

I'm not sure how one can assess the 'facts' of life not become disheartened. I think depression and desperation is an expected and reasonable response to finding yourself in this intense complex reality, with no idea why you're here, what here is, where you are going, with no one to guide you and no path to follow, and untold and infinite forms of physical and emotional suffering at every turn. Our beautiful planet has shaped us into discontent animals, that think we are better and different to the other beasts and we are different at least. We are unqiuely capable of a unhappiness never before seen in our part of the universe, with our biological compulsions and imperatives and our inner dreams and desires, our wants always at odds with the society we created. How can I have an appreciation of art, whilst having a nervous system that is able to respond instantly, violently, aggressively to a threat? We have progressed so rapidly but we haven't left much of the past behind us and carry it still.

Or am I just talking myself into this? Maybe we are beings of light that must transcend matter and this suffering is an illusion, or a delusion. But I fear that for most of the questions I have, there are no answers.

 

[Foreigner]

You (both) make me want to kick walls in with your statements about "depression".

Just buy a pillow and fucking start to sit.

And laugh about depression.

You really think that meditation ends existential depression?

Now that's something to laugh at.

I can meditate doing virtually anything... walking, making dinner, dancing, whatever. My mind can be empty. It doesn't change suffering and it doesn't change the crap we have to deal with in order to live.

 

[Mysterie]

ive found some solace in taking different supplements and a drug to reduce inflammation which i believe may contribute to my melancholic disposition, my litmus test has been a daily formal sitting practice and so far it has stuck.

my edge in terms of questioning my identity as a victim and someone who perhaps takes comfort in depression, is to do things differently, make mistakes on purpose, test the boundaries and limits i have set for myself unconsciously. what are the actual repercussions from extending myself out of my map of operating in this world, how painful is the suffering of the actual fear as opposed to the imagined fear.

 

[Cosmic Trigger]

I like to think that heightened awareness of 'things' is useful and positive, but I must admit, I struggle with the path I've chosen. Or been taken down. For at least 18 months, I have been hugely discontent and getting worse and unable to really see beauty and joy and peace anymore. I feel like I've stared at existence and seen this mechanical and architectural process that I feel so seperate from. It is really hard to see much that is desirable in this reality, so pain filled and gloomy it can get. The occaisional ray of light isn't enough to keep me warm and fed anymore, and comfort and pleasure seems few and far between. I feel like I am pushing through a sort of boundary and am approaching something like minor illumination, or possibly destruction and death. I almost welcome either. Will probably get neither though.

I'm not sure how one can assess the 'facts' of life not become disheartened. I think depression and desperation is an expected and reasonable response to finding yourself in this intense complex reality, with no idea why you're here, what here is, where you are going, with no one to guide you and no path to follow, and untold and infinite forms of physical and emotional suffering at every turn. Our beautiful planet has shaped us into discontent animals, that think we are better and different to the other beasts and we are different at least. We are unqiuely capable of a unhappiness never before seen in our part of the universe, with our biological compulsions and imperatives and our inner dreams and desires, our wants always at odds with the society we created. How can I have an appreciation of art, whilst having a nervous system that is able to respond instantly, violently, aggressively to a threat? We have progressed so rapidly but we haven't left much of the past behind us and carry it still.

Or am I just talking myself into this? Maybe we are beings of light that must transcend matter and this suffering is an illusion, or a delusion. But I fear that for most of the questions I have, there are no answers.

I always relate to your posts brother. I have to say that for me at least Schopenhauer has been the best medicine for coping with severe existential depression. I'm speaking about his "Studies in Pessimism". It very likely won't make it go away but at the very least you will have found someone who understands you and has great empathy for you. Also who has a, at least, partial solution. So here it is for anyone interested. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t9HaH7Iiic and for anyone having serious problems with guilt trips around suicide then chapter three will be a balm for your troubled soul. Best of luck to all of us fellow sufferers. We need some luck.

 

[Cosmic Trigger]

You really think that meditation ends existential depression?

Now that's something to laugh at.

I can meditate doing virtually anything... walking, making dinner, dancing, whatever. My mind can be empty. It doesn't change suffering and it doesn't change the crap we have to deal with in order to live.

Millions of meditators are depressed in spite of depression. It won't cure imo but it can help a little for some. It doesn't work for me so far but learning relaxation techniques has helped a little.

 

[belligerent drunk]

I think this article really describes the birth of philosophers, and maybe even drug users. For me, this problem goes deep. It's not situational. Even when I've been happy, I've been aware of the temporariness. As the article goes on to describe, there's no patch work that can make it better, yet there's no real way to escape it.

I can easily relate to this. Perhaps I would word it slightly differently than the article did, and exclude the fear of death from it, but in general, the so-called lack of structure in our world is the primary reason for my existential depression. I realize that I have ultimate freedom to do whatever I like (within reason of course), but it also seems like a burden in that I have to design my life from scratch. Sometimes I envy people who don't know any better, and just do what they're told by society without questioning it.

The article frames it as a gifted children thing, but really it can affect anyone. Once you see it, you can't unsee it. It happens at all stages of life. For me, it happened as a teenager, and I had trouble putting words to it.

Yes, you don't have to be a genius to come to this type of questions. I would only say that it requires a curious mind. Somebody who doesn't ask questions is rather unlikely to face these problems. What do you think?

 

[Nixiam]

You can have an IQ of 98 and come to these questions rather naturally. It takes a genius sometimes to push science over the edge, but a regular person?

Questions like that are not exclusive to any certain set of humans. Everything in existence really, has that right to think.

 

[Ziiirp]

You really think that meditation ends existential depression?

Now that's something to laugh at.

I can meditate doing virtually anything... walking, making dinner, dancing, whatever. My mind can be empty. It doesn't change suffering and it doesn't change the crap we have to deal with in order to live.

Then you did not find the posture/activity, that suits you. Did you ever consult some authentic advisor ?

 

[neurotic]

[I think 'gifted' is a rather loaded word, though we can just ignore it]

I have always asked myself about the reason behind this [existential depression, though I'm not a fan of that label]. Always trying to find out exactly why, exactly what was it that I had or had not, too little or too much, that made me feel this way while everyone else was doing just fine. I tried our several different explanations, "too sensitive", "too weak", "spends too much time in his own head", "too naive", "too neurotic", "something wrong with my brain", "happiness is unattainable", "going insane", but none really worked - as I met more and more people, some were sensitive/weak/naive/neurotic as well but didn't "have it" like I did. What as it then, why so elusive? I always viewed as a defect, and that ate me inside.

Currently, I espouse the view that it is a social issue, of not fitting in. I believe that we begin questioning things such as social conventions or the attitudes of others for example when they don't 'make sense', and that's when 'it' begins. Others apparently don't have any reaction to what leaves us perplexed, so when we try to express this to them, it falls on deaf ears, and more and more we get out of sync with it all. At a certain point it gets out of control. I think we forget the original reason of our perplexing and start turning into 'deeper' philosophical questions... but I believe that this is nothing that human connection cannot cure. Sadness is what makes us stop and reevaluate what we are doing, and I truly believe that being in this constant state of distance from 'society' is what turns people so hard to philosophical questions. I have pondered hard about themes like solipsism, "all we can know is experience", "we are ultimately alone" but really it all goes away, it stops mattering at all once I connect with someone else. It doesn't matter anymore, it is ethereal, beyond words. It's as if we were hungry, starving, though trying to solve it using our intellect. No amount of thinking will fill your stomach, and I think human connection is something as primitive and essential as food.

So I've been trying to embrace what makes me different from others as opposed to suppress it, and instead of waste my time being perplexed by people whose attitudes baffle me or who I find disinteresting, I try to invest in relationships with those who are like me and understand. Granted, those are very rare, and I am kind of out of shape, but still is all I can do.

Of course maybe there are others who also relate and for who connecting with other humans is not what it's all about, but so far it is working for me...

I wish I could be more eloquent to do this all justice...

I'm sorry for your loss Foreigner. I never spoke directly to Jamshyd but you could tell by his posts he was a very bright guy. Extremely unfortunate...

 

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

Oh, shit. I don't think it was really depression. But once when I was in poor health (it got better, turns out I have low T from suboxone) but also was not helping my asthma that was about to turn to COPD, but I quit 2 years 1/2 ago and vape now. I was thinking about death and how, apparently it's a belief to think your "soul" is part of the elements in your body and that's it, I don't buy the X weighted 2 pounds less after death things, so to me, when you die, you're dead. When I was younger I found that thought comforting, but now I find it scary and is one reason I need benzos to just stop focusing on that shit. In the end it doesn't help you be happier. Here Philosophy is mandatory in college, there's 3 classes you gotta pass, so even if you passed all your electrical engineering or whatever classes, you won't get your diploma if you didn't pass all 3 philo classes, same with the other mandatory classes, but anyway to stay on the point, most, not all, of the philo teachers were pretty special people, one I never had, but was known a lot in the college was known to have psychotic breaks/burn outs, we don't know, but he would be paid full pay and being at the hospital psych ward (we demolished all mental hospitals here, because they were reminders of the bad way people were treated before the 60's kicked in and also because the government thinks there's meds for anybody to have a normal life out there. Although, I gotta say, the best anti-psychotic for people who are deep into this, is clozapine and the thing can kill you, you gotta take weekly blood tests, it's the first atypical antipsychotic they came up with and with the others all tried to get something similar to it and failed.

I'm glad the outside world bothers me more sometimes.

 

[Yourbaker]

Great topic Foreigner, for me the longest existential depression of my life has suddenly ended. Not from anything I have done either. Being on medical marijuana I opted to go with edible oil as I don't really like smoking it, the high is slightly different much more in my head and as a result I tend to focus on specific unresolved issues in my world view. While my solutions may not be accurate they do satisfy my ego and the result is usually a dopamine push from my medicated brain and a slow climb out of an impossible depression.

I realize this is a sad solution, like putting a bandaid on your eye so you don't see the cut, but hey I'm not depressed maybe it worked.

 

[Cosmic Trigger]

Whatever ended the depression is valid and worthwhile. Not a sad solution IMO. Ride it as long as you can and be glad you had it. That's life, ups and downs and you don't always get to pick which you get the most of. I think this type of depression has a lot to do with lack of community and shared empathy. Jung said something like "Loneliness is not the lack of people to be around but rather having thoughts and feelings that you are not able to share openly with them". I've been looking for my tribe most of my life and I've yet to truly find it. I live around tons of people but they go by in a dream. I live within my own thoughts and feelings and sharing them almost always makes the people I choose to share with very uncomfortable. That's my fate and I'm sure I'm not alone in that. Most of humanity seems to be invested in repressing the very thoughts and feelings that would heal their lives if they were able to endure the fear associated with beginning to feel them. That's my take on it after 63 years of being lonely. I get much more from my dogs then I do from my species and I thank the stars they are here with me as I type this.

 

[Noodle]

^

Wise, and spot on in my experience thus far.

I'm 43 at the moment.

 

[sigmond]

so this is a bit strange; i searched for the langston hughes poem found at the bottom of the article and this poem popped up on the front page:

NSFW:

im not sure how different this is from existential nihilism, i suppose its individual-nihilism-manifesting-as-depression-in-gifted-children. anyway, i can say bibliotherapy has been helpful for me over the years. everything else i was going to write seems rather mawkish and cliche. i think its a quality article though, i was unaware of Yalom and some varieties of Existential_therapy

 

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

Whatever ended the depression is valid and worthwhile. Not a sad solution IMO. Ride it as long as you can and be glad you had it. That's life, ups and downs and you don't always get to pick which you get the most of. I think this type of depression has a lot to do with lack of community and shared empathy. Jung said something like "Loneliness is not the lack of people to be around but rather having thoughts and feelings that you are not able to share openly with them". I've been looking for my tribe most of my life and I've yet to truly find it. I live around tons of people but they go by in a dream. I live within my own thoughts and feelings and sharing them almost always makes the people I choose to share with very uncomfortable. That's my fate and I'm sure I'm not alone in that. Most of humanity seems to be invested in repressing the very thoughts and feelings that would heal their lives if they were able to endure the fear associated with beginning to feel them. That's my take on it after 63 years of being lonely. I get much more from my dogs then I do from my species and I thank the stars they are here with me as I type this.

Thankfully I have my cat who's 16 year old and healthy. She made loneliness tolerable before my current 2 year gf (close to beat a record for myself), it works because we don't live together, just sometimes invite the other over for a time. Keeps the magic alive. But yes, the authorities wants you to think of your Nation as your tribe and have full faith in it, despite the disconnect between them and the people. It's a good idea as long as those running the machine are under constant critical scrutiny, which is almost done with because of cash and blackmail. My tribe were my group of friends with whom I did tons of psychedelics with, moved weed and L (all before 2008 when we put an end to that) oh also grown shrooms. One of them killed himself/died in a suspicious way, knowing as intelligent as he was, getting drunk and boiling a pot of cooking oil with a bag of fries next to it while drunk as fuck, killed him with the CO, with some mininal damage to house he rented with other people at the college just 1h30 away from us. That made all of us guys and girls, quite closer even for a time. But suddenly a lot of them either "grew up" and had kids, started shunning me because they didn't like me anymore when I had not changed at all, or those who only kept contact because I can find "stuff". Let's say the third category, I'm not very fond of, as they don't want to party with me. Some other friends in a category I forgot moved far away but still inside Canada, but still, my ex girlfriend who put her carreer ahead of our relationship of 2 years to move to Niagara Falls, ON for work in her field she had trouble finding in QC...and other less bitter examples where some friends moved away to some colleges not in our town, although this town is a college town with 3 universities (2 small ones, a big Provincial one), but the way things are set here, a program I wanted to be in at 18 year old, my mom guilt shamed me into not moving to Montreal to do because she'd lose the pension...MY pension, the pensions were in my and my brother's name. I told her, so what you'll have less people to feed, the brother is always away eating at other people's houses etc., but yeah, that's one of the few things I hold against my mother, using money she should have given directly to us and keeping it for herself, my dad gave me and my bro pension, not her.

So it all ended up with me coming back to a town near my hometown with only a few people I know, mostly girls who are committed (which is out of this world strange for them), the one ex I kept as a friend at least still believes in SOAD's song X, we don't need to multiply, but her friend and mine also whom I had some amazing..time with.. I went on facebook lately only to see a pic of her 8 month old baby belly...right, I bet she doesn't know some people have a fetish regarding that...lol. But yeah, all our friends growing apart with time hurts, especially those with no reason not to talk to you, living right here in the same town, who was pretty much my best friend from 1999-2008, he's busy getting babies, 2 now in 3 years and he wants a third one, so all the rooms in the basement are taken, no guest room. And all the guys who were in our hardcore punk band from 99 to 08 deciding to stop playing, except for my cousin who's a bassist, but he plays sludge metal with another band now, something I only have a vague interest in, I like Crowbar, that's about it. Estranged from my own cousin, who's a bass virtuoso, who ignores my pleas to drive 1 hour to jam with me like back then. All those times together, meant nothing, I had this feeling on a shroom trip when I had a party for my 19th birthday, the people I suddenly saw with FAKE figuratively on their face turned out to be exactly that.

Fuck.

 

[malakaix]

I had no idea about Jamshyd's death. Sorry to hear that.

I remember scrolling through P&S threads years ago when he was still active on Bluelight and seeing that orange text and knowing that it was always a post worth reading, containing a great deal of thought and insight.

This topic also runs deep for me. I made a thread about it late last year in P&S, really with the same intention here just to express my thoughts and gather others. I've been dealing with it for going on 5-6 years now and it just seems to become more difficult with time, no matter how much I engage life it does not seem to console this feeling of existential frustration. It's as though I am un-able to trick myself into believing the world around me, as you said.. once it's seen, it can't be unseen.